He 111 at 5th Sept 1944

[Bas Maathuis]

Hello,

On the 5th September 1944 a German a/c , probably a He 111, was shot down by Thunderbolts over the eastern part of Holland. It eventually crashed between Delden and Goor at approximately N_52.24362, E_ 6.65340 according to an eyewitness who was 20 years at that time, and wrote down everything that happened in the area during the war in his school agenda’s.
Another source wrote about this event claiming it happened at 13.00 hrs local time, and had a crew of six. Four killed and two wounded.
This crash is not registered in the Dutch Airwar Studygroups database.
Can anyone help me trying to identify this a/c and crew?

Thanks in advance for any help!

[John Manrho]

Belonged to Wetterflugstelle Soesterberg, I have the crewmembers somewhere or at least part of it. Don't know the type for sure but reported as He 111 by the Thunderbolt pilot.

[Bas Maathuis]

Hi John,

Thanks for your reply. I hope you will find the time to dig into your archive.
Even part of the crew would be much appreciated.

[John Manrho]

I found the following...

FF: Horst Mahnert (survived?)

Killed were;

Uffz. Gerhard Sander, geb. 24.09.1919 Querfurt (BW) (yss. R-9-215)
Fw. Alfred Stephan, geb. 01.04.1908 ??? (Yss. R-9-216)
Uffz. Franz Brunnbauer, geb. 30.08.1904 Weidling (Yss. R-9-217)
Reg.Rat. Walter Zieger, geb. 06.08.1909 Meisten (Yss. R-9-218)

All were initially buried at Enschede.

Regards,

John

[Bas Maathuis]

Thanks John for a very quick response.
Can you explain what a 'Reg.Rat' is. Never seen that before.

[John Manrho]

Regierungsrat.....google and thou shall be wiser.....maybe....he was probably the Beobachter of the crew. He was the meteorologist....

J.

[Bas Maathuis]

Thanks again John

[John Manrho]

There was a Uffz. Horst Mahnert as pilot with 8./KG 55 in June 1940....probably the same guy....?

[DR40eghs]

Originally Posted by John Manrho

Regierungsrat.....google and thou shall be wiser.....maybe....he was probably the Beobachter of the crew.

"Regierungsrat"
is in Germany (& Switzerland) an employment title in the civil service career system, payment Level A13. The military equivalent is "Major".
A "Rat" (in the education System: "Studienrat", in universities: "Akademischer Rat", "Kriminalrat" in the police ... etc.) requires as educational minimum a university degree (a university diploma, master degree - a Bachelor is not sufficient !) in one of the scientific subjects entitling for a following scientific dissertation ("doctors degree", Ph.D. ...).

Higher titles (usually requiring personnel response, minimum 3 or more of A13 level, or a longer professional experience, > 15 years ...) are:
- Ober(Regierungs)Rat - A14 - Oberstleutnant
- (Regierungs)Direktor - A15 - Oberstleutnant/Oberst
- Ober(Studien/Regierungs)Direktor - A16 - Oberst

Sorry when i bore you ... but these employment titles appear from time to time in Luftwaffe subjects.

And yes, Reg.-Rat Walter Ziegler was a meteorologist at Wetterflugstaffel Soesterberg, in civil life a "Diplom-Meteorologe".
The He 111 was on a evacuation flight to Erfurt, since Luftwaffe units left all forward airbases in the Netherlands around the 5th Sept. 44.
And: Ziegler was Born in Meißen/Saxonia - not "Meisten" as John wrote. I enquired infos/data regarting this Crew at WASt in 2010.
The loss is also mentioned in Kingston/Seliger: "Wekusta", on page 158.

The victory for shooting down the He 111 was given to Capt. Thwaites & 2Lt Morgan, 361.FS/355.FG (12:55), both a 0.5 victory share (Olynyk).

Ragards,
Uwe, Karlsruhe/DE

[RT]

NVM diggers, seem not to hv found everythingelse ..

Rémi