Seeking photos of 5./KG55 He111P G1+FN FL Belgium on 13.05.40

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

I'm trying to complete the EoE Photo collection of KG55 a/c that FL relatively intact during the Western Campaign of May-June 1940. This is one of the few such a/c for which we don't have photos. Can anyone help?

13 May 1940: 5./KG55 Heinkel He111P. Belly-landed at Attert (Belgium) damaged by AA fire and starboard engine destroyed in attacks by S/Lt Boutarel and S/Lt Salva of GC I/3 over Herbeumont 7.50 p.m. FF Oberlt Gottfried Weigel, BF Fähnrich Hans Ott, BM Uffz Karl Gerdsmeier, and BS Gefr Karl Geib all unhurt. Aircraft G1+FN 100% write-off.
This crew was soon back on operations, Karl Gerdsmeier being wounded five days later. Apart from Ott, they were all shot down and captured on September 25, 1940, during a sortie to Bristol."

[gogh]

found om Ebay a long time ago
Attachment 12163

[Larry Hickey]

gogh,

Thanx. Very helpful. This is obviously a double exposure, but this may well be a photo of the a/c that I'm seeking. The double exposure considerably muddies the water, but the image of G1+FN may be an intact aircraft, which would be expected from this crash. Any other possible photos of this crash out there?

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

There is a photo in one of Arnaud Gillet's books (his "French Victories: 10 Mai-15 Mai 1940, Photographies Des Victories pg.25) that purports to show this a/c force-landed intact. The code on the a/c is not clear, but could be G1+FN based upon the part of the code that is visible. Due to the condition of the a/c in that photo, you would have expected the a/c to have been recovered and set to a depot to be refurbished, not scrapped, as seen here. Gillet attributes his photo to a Georg Engel, and lists a Fw Georg Engel as one of the crewmen in the text. Engel is not listed as a crewman on aboard this a/c on our EoE loss listing (see above), confusing the issue. However, all the other crewmen he lists matches our loss entry.

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-L7R...-L7RM7DX-L.jpg

Can anyone help sort this out?

[Pieter H]

Hi Larry,
Good question!
First, I think the 2 pictures (the double exposure of Gogh) and the one from Gillet belong to the same aircraft.
Secondly, Gillet, both in "Rupture sur la Meuse .." and "Victoires de la Chasse Française vol1" has BF Fw Engel consistently mentioned as crew member for both the 5./KG55 at Attert and the 6./KG55 aircraft at Puxe. Both on May 13.
The crew of the 2nd aircraft was - if not dead - taken prisoner, so I assume that the French reports on that incident have confirmed Engel's name in that crash.

Which raises the following questions for the 5./KG55 G1+FN crash at Attert:
If Engel was NOT in this a/c, it would give it an unusally small crew, especially given the fact that is was commanded by an ObLt (the Staffelkapitän?). Usually these high ranking officers had a full 5-person crew. So if our Georg Engel was not the BF, who was? (By the way, I had Ott labeled as BO, but I can't verify whether that is based on official documents or by injunction).

There is still the possibility of TWO Fw Georg Engel's. Although I can't come up on the spot with other examples, I've seen identically ranked identical names in crews before. But I admit that is a stretch.

Then I remembered that I had a list of KG55 losses, downloaded long ago from the web site www.btinternet.com/~air_research/kg55loss.pdf (Which doesn't seem to work any more).
And believe it or not, this gives the full crews including some identfication number.
WITH TWO DIFFERENT Fw GEORG ENGEL's.


13 May 1940 He 111P 5./KG55 Gl+FN
(P) Oberleutnant GottfriedWeigel (67020/4), (O) Fähnrich Ott, (FE) Unteroffizier Karl Gerdsmeier (67020/50) (W) Fw.Georg Engel (67020/37) and (G) Gefreiter KarlGeib (67020/84) all uninjured. Attacked by 5 French Morane Saulnier MS 406s from astern. The attack damaged the port engine but the pilot force landed Nr Attert, N of Arlon, Belgium.

13 May 1940 He111 6./KG55
(P) Ltn. Horst Köhler (67021/5), (O) Fw. Paul Laufer (67019/18) and (W) Fw. Georg Engel (67021/28) PoW. (FE) Fw. Heinrich Winkelhaus (67021/23) and (G) Ogfr. Karl-Heinz Piur (67021/66) killed. Originally buried at Metz, N ofNancy, France. As there were two Georg Engels in II/KG 55, Fw.Georg Engel (67021/28) was known as Engel 1 and Fw. Georg Engel (67020/37) was known as Engel 2.


See the note on the two Engel's!
By the way, also the G1+FN code confirmed.
Misteries solved (I hope),


Cheers, Pieter

[Larry Hickey]

Pieter,

This is extremely helpful, and I'm sure will greatly please Peter Cornwell, who maintains the EoE Loss data bases. This is the kind of thing that can drive a researcher nuts. I hope that Matti Salonen can confirm this.

I'm still looking for good, clear (no double exposure) photos of force-landed He111P G1+FN, so I hope someone else will jump in here with good imagery.

I've now got photo documentation of 15 and possibly 16 KG55 He111 FL & crashes on Allied soil during the WC/FC, which absolutely astounds me. eBay has fundamentally changed the whole research landscape for crash photography and LW photography in general. There are only a few more KG55 losses from May-June, 1940, that we don't have, which I'll be publishing about and requesting help for shortly. In addition to these, we have one KG55 FL during the Polish Campaign period, and just about all the known photography of crashes from the Battle of Britain--overall a situation that would have been unthinkable only a few years ago. KG55 did not lose any He111s to combat action during the Sitzkrieg/Phoney War, just several to accidents, and I have no photos of any of these at present.

I plan to assemble checklists of photos for the other LW units to compare against our detailed loss lists. If this level of comprehensive coverage holds up for other units, it will be an incredible achievement, which we will publish

[Peter Cornwell]

I am always pleased to unravel such thorny issues but the Georg ENGEL question was resolved some time ago. Unfortunately, Larry has (once again) referenced an out of date version of the EOE loss lists in his post. Nevertheless, many thanks Pieter for your input. Incidentally, the current EOE loss entry notes that there were apparently no less than three Georg ENGELs serving in II./KG55 at the time. Perhaps Matti can confirm ?

[ChrisS]

All from an expired eBay auction.

Cheers

Chris

[ChrisS]

possibly another (my photo /image limit has become full) I will send it to you

[Matti Salonen]

I have only those two Engels, which Pieter mentioned. The third one obviously was never involved in any kind of accident or incident worth of reporting to GQM or WASt.

Matti