Allied air superiority in 1944: P-47 D Razorback decided it?

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by NickM

Dog this quote of yours got my attention:

" or Dr. Prien's extensive LW staffel histories..."

I am aware of his Geschwader histories, but I am not familiar with these...

Hello Nick,

I think I can legitimately intervene here. Prien's Jagdfliegerverbände is the work Bill referred to. Jastas or Jagdstaffeln is the First World War terminology, as in the following book - http://www.amazon.com/The-Jasta-Pilo.../dp/1898697477 . I apologise if all of the foregoing is self-evident.

Regards,

Paul

[NickM]

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

Hello Nick,

I think I can legitimately intervene here. Prien's Jagdfliegerverbände is the work Bill referred to. Jastas or Jagdstaffeln is the First World War terminology, as in the following book - http://www.amazon.com/The-Jasta-Pilo.../dp/1898697477 . I apologise if all of the foregoing is self-evident.

Regards,

Paul

OK...so as I understand things Herr Prien is writing the history of each & every fighter staffel in the Jagdwaffe?! If that's the case then, I salute the sheer awesomeness of this task.

[GuerraCivil]

It is true that P-51 was better fighter than P-47 in many respects - I guess that from today´s point of view we could add even the advantage of less Co2 emissions (slim Mustang consumed less fossile fuel per flying hour than heavy Jug).

But as Ruy Horta suspects in this thread: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...ight=P-47+p-51 - I have also the feeling that everyone loved P-51 because it was prettier, cheaper, faster etc. than the poor Razorback. The one became the swan and the other remained as ugly duckling.

I still think that P-47 was what was needed and was available when there were teething problems with P-38 and improved P-51 not ready to take in combat in great numbers. The tide had turned against LW dayfighter force before the elegant bubbletop P-51 D stole the show (more credit should be given also to earlier P-51 models).

I have not complete data but I believe that it will show the downward spiral of LW dayfighter force and growing losses at accelerating speed as soon as Thunderbolts entered in the picture. Of course Spitfire IX´s played also a part in balancing the scales vs. FW 190 and Bf 109 but less than Thunderbolts I guess.

For comparison lets take the Pacific War: there is no doubt that Hellcat and Corsair were better performing fighters than Wildcat, but during the critical period of 1942 the Wildcat was which bore the brunt of combat (together with P-40) and it was good enough to stop Japanese triumph.

By the time when Hellcat, Corsair and P-38 made their combat debut at the Pacific, the Japanese fighter force was already decisively weakened. The downward spiral of Japanese air forces had already started and Hellcat & Co. just accelerated it.

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by GuerraCivil

But as Ruy Horta suspects in this thread: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...ight=P-47+p-51 - I have also the feeling that everyone loved P-51 because it was prettier, cheaper, faster etc. than the poor Razorback. The one became the swan and the other remained as ugly duckling.

I still think that P-47 was what was needed and was available when there were teething problems with P-38 and improved P-51 not ready to take in combat in great numbers...

I have not complete data but I believe that it will show the downward spiral of LW dayfighter force and growing losses at accelerating speed as soon as Thunderbolts entered in the picture...

GuerraCivil, you are not quite acknowledging that the Mustang was a fundamentally superior to its contemporaries, much like the Bf 109 when it appeared in the late 1930s. For purposes of illustration, see the comparative data on zero-lift drag coefficient (CD,o) and maximum lift-drag ratio (L/D)max , for several US aircraft.
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/Hi...468/app-a2.htm
.

The P-47 was needed above all because the P-38 groups had been sent to the Mediterranean. The 1st, 14th and 82nd Fighter Groups made a very important contribution to Allied victory in Tunisia as well as Sicily. The first Lightning group of the Eighth, the 55th FG, did not become operational until mid-October 1943. In the Pacific, the 475th FG, and the equivalent of another Lightning group in separate squadrons, was operational at this time.

The key period when the Luftwaffe was defeated was the summer and early autumn of 1942, before the USAAF operations had any significant effect. In the West, the introduction of the Spitfire IX was important, but so was the improvement in Fighter Command tactics. Over the Western Desert and Malta, the situation was even clearer. The Spitfire V and the Merlin-engined Kittyhawk II (P-40F) were both inferior to the Bf 109, but the Luftwaffe technical advantage was relatively narrow and so Allied numerical superiority proved decisive. This is the reason why I think the Thunderbolt versus Mustang debate on its own is less important, it is the general course of the air war that is most interesting.

Regards,

Paul