5 October 1944 - claim for a P_38/F-5 C

[Nick Beale]

Looking at the MACR, it gives two positions for the loss of 2/Lt. Murray: "AAF 234" (on the report form) and "somewhere very near Arnheim" (in the witness statement). In that statement, 2/Lt. Hall says "suddenly I was jumped by an enemy fighter about 500 feet distant." No mention of a jet, nor did he see Murray attacked.

He called out over the radio: "… 'Murray, boogies, boogies' but did not have time to say more. I heard him say 'Where?'. In about five minutes I called him again and told him I was going home. He said 'OK'. That was the last I head of him. We were flying at 27,500 ft in clear but slightly hazy weather. The time was approximately 1410 hours."

(Presumably this was British Summer Time, GMT+1).

The II. Jagdkorps report for the day in ULTRA does not include any claim for a Lightning.

Attached is an ULTRA which looks like it is I./KG 51's report for 6 October (number of aircraft operating, bombs dropped on Allied airfields). As corroboration, an Allied report confirms that two Me 262 dropped canisters (=AB containers) in the Nijmegen area. Again, no mention of a Lightning.

[Jochen Prien]

Thank you Nick.

So where does this all leave us ? Fact is that said F-5 C was lost on 6 October 1944, its pilot Murray becoming a POW. It seems quite certain, that both F-5s were attacked by (fighter) aircraft and that the loss of Murray's a/c has to be attributed to aerial combat (even if he hadn't much chance to fight back according to his report). There are hints that the assailant was an Me 262 jet, but there is no hard proof for this.

I have done some digging myself and have come to the conclusion that Kdo. Nowotny can be ruled out as from all I can see this unit saw its first action only the next day, i.e. 7 October 1944. Hptm. Eder in particular did not file a claim on this day, the P-38 that was mentioned earlier on as an "early October claim" was the result of an erronneous reconstruction of an interview he gave many years ago, the correct date of this claim being 18 November 1944. As a matter of fact there is no evidence whatsoever, that a pilot from Kdo. Nowotny filed a claim on 6 October 1944 at all and in particular that this pilot was Hptm. Eder.

The only other jet-equipped unit in the area was 3./KG 51 which was in fact active over the Dutch battleground on this day. However, there is no trace at all of one of its Me 262s being involved in aerial combat, let alone of a shot down P-38/F-5. Heavy flak and fighter opposition encountered over the target area is all that was reported and no mention of one or two lone P-38s flying at 27.500 ft.

No other Luftwaffe piston-engined fighter unit is known to have filed a claim for a P-38 either, so that the issue must remain unsolved for the time being, not the only one by far.

Many thanks again for the time and kind assistance of all who have contributed to this thread. Perhaps some day someone might come up with the solution (usually one or two weeks after the publication of the next volume). I'd be delighted.

KR

Jochen Prien

[Martin Gleeson]

Unlikely I know, but could this F-5 loss be a case of 'Friendly Fire' ? A 140 Squadron Mosquito was shot down near Helgoland by USAAF P-51s of the 4th FG this day and claimed as a 'Me 410' ('2nd TACTICAL AIR FORCE', Vol. 2 by Chris Shores and Chris Thomas). I do not have the relevant volume of USAAF fighter claims by Frank Olynyk, but perhaps someone might comment on this.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

[Jaap Woortman]

Martin,

Victory List no. 5, page 146:
100644 11.00 Me-410
10-20 m. NW of Heligoland Island
2/Lt Ralph E. Lewis 0,5
1/Lt Elmer N. McCall 0,5
335 Ftr. Sq.

Jaap

[Stig Jarlevik]

Sorry to barge in here, but the P-38/F-5 must have been one of the most easily regognized airplanes on the Western Front.

At the height we are talking about as well, nothing looked like that.
I doubt very much a friendly fire.

It is more likely that the German pilot just maybe never realised he had inflicted any damage to the Lightning. The Me 262 was new and if, on top, the aircraft was from a Bomber Unit, the pilot was probably not very comfortable doing air combat and that might account for no victory claim (s) being filed.

Mistaking a Mosquito with a Me 410 is one thing (I buy that) but mistaking a P-38 with a Lightning, no I can't accept that. Sorry.

Cheers
Stig

[Martin Gleeson]

Jaap,

Yes, those were the pilots who shot down the Mosquito. I should have been clearer in my comments as I was really wondering if there were any other claims by USAAF pilots for twin-engine aircraft that day over NW Europe.

Stig,

You are probably correct about the bomber unit, etc. but there were many, many instances of misidentification by aircrew during the war.

Regards,

Martin.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Agree Martin

Friendly fire was (and is) a nasty business.
Anything is possible, but was ever a P-38/F-5 hit by friendly fire?
I am not talking about AAA-fire but in air-to-air combat.

Best
Stig