First P/R overflight of Moscow?

[Nick Beale]

There is also something about early overflights in Günther W. Gellermann's »Moskau ruft Heeresgruppe Mitte« (Bernard & Graefe, ISBN 3763758569). He has an account from a crew that was captured by the Soviets but (from memory) released when German troops invaded.

[Larry deZeng]

Col. Bruggy wrote in part:

Have you consulted, David Kahn's "Hitler Spies"? Kahn corresponded both, with Theodor Rowehl, and Cornelius Noell. His Chapter 8, The World From the Sky (pp.114-135), mentions the overflights. There is also a mention in Chapter 24, The Greatest Mistake (pp.445-461). Kahn also cites a couple of publications not mentioned in your Bibliography.

I have Kahn's book stored in a box in my garage and I will take a look at it today. I remember that he had a lot of material on the so-called "Rowehl Geschwader". But I do not have either of the East German titles you mentioned.

L.

[Larry deZeng]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

There is also something about early overflights in Günther W. Gellermann's »Moskau ruft Heeresgruppe Mitte« (Bernard & Graefe, ISBN 3763758569). He has an account from a crew that was captured by the Soviets but (from memory) released when German troops invaded.

I am pretty sure this is the aircraft that came down in western Ukraine just a few days before 22 June 1941.

L.

[Larry deZeng]

Here is what Kahn has to say about Noell:

On 26 June 1941, four days after the Germans attacked, Noell took off in his Ju 88 from a forward fighter airfield and headed toward Moscow, homing in on its broadcasting station. [blah, blah, blah]. He calmly photographed the airfields surrounding the city. Russian fighters rose to intercept him and all sorts of Flak fired away but he was far too high to be in danger. When he finished, he turned and sailed unscathed for home.

Kahn says Cornelius Noell also flew two Fw 200 Condor recce missions from Königsberg to Narvik during the occupation of Norway.

[Source: Kahn, David. Hitler's Spies. 1978. ISBN: 0-02-560610-7. Pages 119-20. The "Notes" section in the book cites "Noell, memorandum" as Kahn's source.

[Nick Beale]

In 1989, I was asked by Mike Norton (who I've long since lost touch with) to translate a copy of a letter he had from Siegfried Knemeyer to Conny Noell, dated 3 July 1977. Knemeyer didn't himself take part in the the 1941 coverage of the USSR but talks about flying the Ju 88 V13 and V14, remarking to Noell:

"Your Ju 88 to Moscow was a Ju 88 B, full-vision cockpit and BM. Bisping explained about the good visibility and the tramlines."

Presumably BM = Bordmechaniker but I've no idea what "tramlines" (Straßenbahnen) means unless perhaps they were lines painted on the glazing to indicate angles of flight.

[Larry deZeng]

"............Tramlines"..................

In my post above where I inserted "blah, blah, blah", Kahn says in reference to this flight,

".........he [Noell] looked through the angular braces and panes of his cockpit window down onto the world capital of communism and saw the trolleys, like long, thin insects, crawling through the craze of streets."

I'm guessing here, but "tramlines, trolleys and Straßenbahnen" are different words for the same thing, i.e., streetcars. The Brits use "tramlines"(?), the Yankee doodles use "trolleys" and "streetcars", and the Germans use "Straßenbahn". I've been on all of them except for the British "trams" because the tube and the London double-decker buses were more fun.

L.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Larry deZeng

"............Tramlines"..................

I'm guessing here, but "tramlines, trolleys and Straßenbahnen" are different words for the same thing, i.e., streetcars. The Brits use "tramlines"(?), the Yankee doodles use "trolleys" and "streetcars", and the Germans use "Straßenbahn". I've been on all of them except for the British "trams" because the tube and the London double-decker buses were more fun.

L.

The reference you quote certainly makes sense in context but the rarer forms of British public transport need explanation! A tram (or tramcar) runs on rails (tramlines) set into the road surface and draws its power from overhead electric cables — since they stopped using horses, anyway. These have always operated in Blackpool and have been reintroduced in e.g. London and Manchester. A trolleybus (sadly no more) took power from overhead cables but did not run on rails; apart from the gear on the roof, it looked like a normal double decker, as best I can remember.

[Larry deZeng]

Your description of the British "tram" or "tramcar" fits the American trolleys and streetcars like a glove. Same for the Straßenbahnen.

L.

[Andy Mitchell]

Hi,

In "On Special Missions" (Smith, Creek and Petrick) on page 17 there are photos of a Ju 88 B-0. The captions suggest that (a) this is K9+RH and (b) it was the aircraft used on the sortie of 26 June 1941.
There is an additional photo on the same page of that aircraft with the crew standing in front (Bisping and Noell are both identified).

[Karoband]

Thanks, everyone, for this great thread!

Jim