Lw-losses without enemy actions!

[RT]

Concerning the figures given by Andreas for the aircrafts "casualties", we arrive to a gross figure of 115.000, I hv in my own base, 90.000 entries, but is missing part of 1940 for the schools + polen is uncomplete +the whole 1944/at least 35.000-40.000, so for end of 1944, man could expect around 135.000 craft-casualties....

rt

[Boandlgramer]

Originally Posted by RT

Concerning the figures given by Andreas for the aircrafts "casualties", we arrive to a gross figure of 115.000, I hv in my own base, 90.000 entries, but is missing part of 1940 for the schools + polen is uncomplete +the whole 1944/at least 35.000-40.000, so for end of 1944, man could expect around 135.000 craft-casualties....

rt

according to the book i quoted above :
The germans have built planes total : (including school) 113 515 AC between 1939 - 45


so its not possible according that book to lost "around" 135 000 .


Also according the book
aircraft losses from september 39 till end of December 44. 71 965 AC (total and damaged more than 10 % ).

the year 1945 is missing.

[Boandlgramer]

AC production :

1939 = 2518
1940 = 10247
1941 = 12401
1942 = 15409
1943 = 24807
1944 = 40593
1945 = 7540

= total 113515 AC.
=
Bomber = 18 235
Jäger = 53729
Schlacht = 12359
Aufklärer = 6299
Seeflugzeuge = 1190
Transport = 3079
Kampf /Transportsegler = 3145
Verbindungsflugzeuge = 2549
Schulflugzeuge = 10942
Strahlflugzeuge = 1988

[RT]

Yes but the losses are quite there "written", to explain difference there are many explanation;
a plane could be damaged/lost many times
Luftwaffe used many foreign planes, mostly in school units
transport units quoted is a production of 3000 transport planes only the Ju52 gave 4000+ casualties without 1944..
Foreign countries appear in the losses/ rumänien, Ungarn, Italien very few../but they gen. flew german planes
Many planes lost during this period hv been built before 1939, mostly for the schools, nd from oct40 to sept 44, the losses for the schools are at least 18.000 strong with some gliders in,from jan 36 to aug.39 losses are 2.300 strong, not in the spanish conflict,...nd more to add

splitting between H/F Heimat/Feind, for 1941/1942 on roughtly 26.000 entries 27 % are H so 73 % F, but if all the H are accidents, some of the F could be also accidents, but during action.

rt

[Marius]

I can give the losses of operational units for September 1939 (mainly Poland);

Accidents - without enemy fire - appr. 100 total losses ( damage 60-100% ).
Total losses to all causes - 303 aircraft.

This means that appr. 30% of all total losses were write offs after accidents.

Marius

[Jens]

Luftwaffe documents of killed soldiers are not very relieable, if you read Overmans "Militärische Verluste". These documents were not doctored, but the Wehrmacht loss system was simply not very sufficent.
Therefore 430.000 KIA as a global number should be taken into account.

Also the system of the Luftwaffe aircraft reports has to be viewed with some scepticism. In Budrass "Flugzeugindustrie" is stated, that already before "Barbarossa" the statistices of damaged planes was lower by some thousand, compared to planes were repaired by industry in reality.

The high figures for non combat losses has IMHO also to be reviewed. One example:
Take this crash of Krupinski at 5.7.43.
Bf 109G-6 W.Nr. 20062 weiße 9 (80%) 7./J.G. 52
Krupinski, Oblt. Walter (RK) Injured, overturning on landing. (Flak?)
Ugrim/Belgorod F
by
http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/tony/...units/jg52.htm

Seems to be more a non-combat loss. As everybody know, Krupinski was already an ace in 1943. Look at Tollivers Hartmann book, there is stated, Krupinski had a hard fight with soviet fighters over the airfield and his 109 suffered hits at the rudder. So he tried an emergency landing and failed. For me this would be more a combat loss.

[RT]

Concerning the Krupinski case, the loss is noted F, so with ennemy action, in the reports it's not stated if it is an accident or anything else, just if it's made during "action" or "einsatz" called "F" or not "H", then you could interprete the cause, if it is or it is not an accident,but to sort them takes more than 5 minutes necessary to split among H or F
Following the figures I gave for 1941/1942 the one for non-action losses "H" seems very high 27%, I re-checked nd based on 23686 entries the "H" branded losses amount to 6480, so a bit more than 27 %, for 1943 the figure is quite higher 30 % based on 25.000 losses, but with Erg.gr. nd Jgr.
without them /if we consider them as schools units/ we fall to 24.8 %

RT