Bf109E lost 7 December 1942

[keith A]

On this date PO D Ibbotson claimed a Bf109E shot down but according to the excellent Mr Shores "History of the Mediterranean Air War" the only Bf109E lost was shot down in error by Italian AA. Ibbotsons claims was made in the afternoon (1305-1445) 5-6m North East of Agheila (although the dogfight began West of Agheila) while the SchG 2 Bf109E-7 crashed East of Sirte which is some considerable distance and therefore unlikely. Did the Luftwaffe lost any other Bf109s particularly from I/JG77?

regards

Keith

[G.R.Morrison]

The Bf 109E-7 WNr.6374 was from I/SchlG. 2, damaged 60% (Italian Flak).

By this time the JG 77 were flying Bf 109G-2s, but I have none of theirs lost on 7.Dec. 1942, although three were lost on 8.Dec. (two as a result of combat).

GRM

[focusfocus]

are you sure WNr.6374?

I have the book:
german casualties: II./SchG 2 bf 109 E-7 WNr 6347 shot-up by flak E Sirte and crash-landed,well but crash-landed where? near Sirte or far away near EL Agheila?

How you deduct that it is a bf 109E

page 468: Plt Off D.Ibbotson a claim for a bf 109 but that's all
no mention of a 109 E or F G

if really a 109E, it's possible that it is a plane of I./SchG 2 or III./ZG 1

REGARDS

[G.R.Morrison]

Am I sure? No, and I'm uncertain we can be. There are typos and number-transpositions in the original records, so we sift through 31,750+ entries to seek discrepancies / duplications. There are also omissions in the records, for there are examples of 'known' losses, with dates, but nothing in the records. Some units were more meticulous about details, in other units the clerks were apparently 'saving their typewriter ribbons.' "Research is ongoing."

It may have been 6347, as there are others in this series (originally built as E-1s, some converted into E-7s that had longer or shorter lives). Indeed, maybe it is not 6374, as that WNr. was reported lost 27.Oct. 1941 while serving with the 15.(span.)/JG 27. But other 'lost' machines get recovered, shipped home for repair and then used in schools (its 'brother' 6373 went from Finland, to JGr. Ost and later JG104, for example) or again at the front.

The loss report for 6374 for 7.Dec. 1942 gives the location as "ostwärts Sirte."

The only other Bf 109 loss in North Africa listed for 7.Dec. 1942 was the F-4 WNr.8468 of the 4.(H)/12, "schwarze 13", Fw. Rieber MIA after combat with enemy fighters. The location was unknown ("Ort unbekannt").

GRM

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi,

Bf 109 E WNr. 6374 was reported on strength with I./Sch.G. 2 on 24 November 1942. This was the aircraft shot down on 7 December 1942. On that day I./Sch.G. 2 flew a seven-aircraft mission to Haseiat, and the Sirte loss was unrelated to the mission (or, at least, it was not mentioned in the mission report).

Ibbotson was in combat with J.G. 77 in the afternoon when he made his claim, and the German fighter unit recorded no aircraft lost or damaged.

4.(H)/12 was in combat at 07:00, claiming a victory, and that is when Kurt Reiber was shot down by Spitfires and captured at El Agheila. The Staffel flew a total of six sorties on this day.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

[keith A]

Thanks chaps. My information comes from a website devoted to Ibbotson which states a Bf109E was the victim, but unless this comes from his logbook I am unable to confirm the extra detail. The fact that he saw his Bf109 fall into the sea would argue he was mistaken.

regards

Keith

[Stig Jarlevik]

Andrew/GRM

I am confused!
Since you now seems quite certain the aircraft involved actually was WNr 6374 and not WNr 6347 perhaps you can advise why you are certain it is not a misprint dated 24 November in German records?

Since WNr 6374 actually has a previous loss date does anything exist on WNr 6347? I want to be sure the reason for WNr 6347 chosen in MAW Vol 2 is not just only a misprint.

Cheers
Stig

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi Stig,

I'm not sure what sources the MAW team used. However, the 24 November 1942 strength return notes 6374, and the loss report submitted 8 January 1943 also notes 6374. The Germans might have made the same typo twice and typed 6374 rather than 6347, but that seems a bit unlikely.

However, I know very little about the Bf 109, so hopefully someone more knowledgeable can step in.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Andrew

Very nice of you. Seems like a typo in MAW after all.
So. beside what it says in MAW 2 WNr 6347 is totally unknown?

Cheers
Stig

[Matti Salonen]

1941-10-27, 15./JG 27, Bf 109 E, 6347, 15 km südlich Wolga-Staubecken
Flugzeugführer Olt Ruibal Sabio, Alfonso, +
Absturz infolge Flakbeschuß. Bruch 100 %.

Matti