56.FG/62.FS & Ar 234 kill on 03/14/1945

[TCO]

Group,

I have a question regarding the victory-scores on 03/14/1945:
Following pilots of the 62. FS were involved in a dogfight with a German jet-bomber "Arado 234" piloted by Lt Amann on this particluar day:

Lt Lear
Lt. Sanborn N Ball
Lt. Norman D Gould

Could you please tell me with how many perecent the above mentioned pilots were credited for a score and the location/vincinity of the individual dogfight?

If you find info on this, what are your sources?

Thanks!
Mario

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hallo Mario

According to Frank Olynyk and his excellent USAAF victory credit publications (in this case Vol 5) 62nd FS actually claimed TWO victories that day
Sanborn Ball 0.5
Warren Lear 0.5
Norman Gould 1.0
Time 15.50H and the area was in the vincinity of Coblentz

Cheers
Stig

[Horst Kube]

The late Theo Rehm, KG 76 wrote down in his never published memoires to this theme as follows:

"Lt. Aman, leader of the Ar 234 group had on 14.03.1845 the order to attack the Ludendorff bridge out from a height of 6.000 mtrs".

Fw Wördemann reports,that they shortly after take off already were awaited and attacked in all heights by enemy fighters.

Furtheron Wördeman reports, that Lt. Aman and Ofw. Johne were shot down at this occasion by Spitfires near by Siegen:

"Aman died after bailing out nearby the little village named Seck, about 20 kmtrs. north of Limburg/Westerwald due to his injuries".

Remarks: The KG 76 story - as far it concerns their last chapter with the Ar 234, which I have from the late Theo Rehm in my hands, should be taken over by a serious member of this board, an historian - and be issued in this board. Part by part and in the next future. What do you think about such a project?

All the best, Horst

[John Manrho]

Are you sure these are the memoirs of Theo Rehm and not simply a copy of the well known KTB of III./KG 76? Several copies are circling in Luftwaffe historian circles....

John.

[Horst Kube]

Hi John,

are you seriously asking me those questions? Did you know Theo Rehm personally?

Come on John - offer your better KG 76, Ar 234 knowledges to the board here and now.

All the best, Horst

[TCO]

Hello all,

Thanks for yor reply. This is a good start.

Problem is that 4 Ar 234 B-2 were shot down on 03/14/45:
- Hptm Hirschberger (killed))
- Lt Amann (killed)
- Fw Bäumler (bailed out and survived)
- Fw Schultz (bailed out and survived)

- Capt. Donald S. Bryan 328. FS/352. FG shot down Hirschberger in the vincinity of Elsaffthal close to Vettelschoss

- 1st Ltd Robert E. Barnhart 360. FS/356. FG shot down the empty autopiloted Ar 234 on the route from Bielefeld to Hildesheim, after Bäumler bailed out (P-38 damaged his Arado before)

- My assumption is that 1st Ltd Warren S. Lear (50%) plus 1st Ltd Sanborn N. Ball (50%), but also 1st Lt Norman D. Gould (100%) - all 62.FS/56. FG - shot down Amann in the vincinity of Koblenz (actually between towns of Rennerod and Seck).

- If my assumption on Amann is correct, I refer to the to the book "Arado 234 Blitz, Smith & Creek, Monogram p.203f): there is only a Tempest of No.222 Squadron RAF left over - so this must have shot down Schultz, who managed to bail out, lost an arm and came down in the vincinity of Waldbröl.

Questions:
- Is my hypothesis correct that Lear, Ball and Gould shot down Amann?

- Was Schultz shot down by a Tempest of No.222 Squadron RAF?

- Could you do me a favour and look up in Olynyk's book what is said regarding Barnhart?

Best regards,
Mario

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Horst Kube

Hi John,

are you seriously asking me those questions? Did you know Theo Rehm personally?

Come on John - offer your better KG 76, Ar 234 knowledges to the board here and now.

All the best, Horst

I think a bit of moderation is called for here, Horst. John's question was not unreasonable. I've had sight of the surviving III./KG 76 material and it was a major source for the operational diary included in the Smith/Creek book for the Monogram Monarch series on the Ar 234.

No one eas saying one source is better than another, just asking if they give different information.

[John Manrho]

Horst,

I did not mean to critize anything. I was just trying to establish if you found a new source of information on the Einsatzstaffel of III./KG 76. I have gone thru one of your previous posts where you describe the mission of the Einsatzstaffel in the night of 31.12.1944/1.1.45. Let me give the exact wording of the KTB Einsatzstaffel III./KG 76 I have in front of me:

Quote:

"1. Nachteinsatz mit Turbinenflugzeugen auf Befehl des Luftwaffenkommandos West mit dem Auftrag Wettererkundung im Raum Südholland-Belgien-Mittelrhein für das Unternehmen "Hermann" durchzuführen. Unternehmen "Hermann": Angriff auf feindliche Flugplätze und Vernichtung der dort abgestellten Flugzeuge mit allen zur Verfügung stehende Kräften.

Einsatz von 4 Arado 234 B-2

2 Flugzeuge Startzeit: 04.00-04.04 Uhr, Landung 05.04-05.06
2 Flugzeuge Startzeit: 05.10-05.20 Uhr, Landung 06.21-06.25

Flugweg: Basis-Rotterdam-Antwerpen-Brüssel-Lüttich-Köln-Basis, Flughöhe 5000m"

You want a bet that this is the same document you have in front of you....???

I recieved this material and much more from Hptm. Lukesch (CO of that unit) and I know several people have this info too. Please let us know if you have new information from Mr. Theo Rehm or that this is the same document.

regards,

John Manrho.

[O.Menu]

Originally Posted by Horst Kube

Remarks: The KG 76 story - as far it concerns their last chapter with the Ar 234, which I have from the late Theo Rehm in my hands, should be taken over by a serious member of this board, an historian - and be issued in this board. Part by part and in the next future. What do you think about such a project?

All the best, Horst

Sure that would be great Horst!
Many thanks to share this knowledge with all of us
Cheers, Olivier.

[TCO]

Well, I think we don' t come any further.

My last thought is, that only Ball and Lear shot down Amann and Gould downed Schulz.

Thank you all for your support!
Mario