Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed

[marsyao]

Originally Posted by NickM

Jim:

OOOF, I'm getting motion sick JUST reading that! Obviously in a really large furball it's next to impossible to keep track of what's going on & who's doing what to whom...but back to the P38s claimed by II/JG2 in Tunisia; in defense of the experten of II/JG2, I also read in Fighters over Tunisia that US units had a very hard time with record keeping, given the VERY rough conditions on the ground( air raids, lean supplies, few or no 'official' forms & reports to fill out, moving from airfield to airfield) & Shores at least states it may have been possible that losses/damage may actually have occured but no one had the time/presence of mind to report it on the days they happened;

NickM

NickM, if those thing indeed occured in often, those US army airforce officers shall be sacked and sent to frontline as infantry. NickM you should considered one thing: each of those lost aircraft was a US goverment property, so each of them must be account for and each loss must be recorded, even there was some delays. and I do not believe, and would be surprised anybody would believe, that in any air force, an aircraft lost would not be recorded in official report

[NickM]

Marsayo:

Certainly LATER in the war they had to account for every dang rivet, bullet & bean--but early on...I get the feeling they may have cut corners here & there;

NickM

[NickM]

Oh sorry...forgot to add that maybe the losses are reported but not on the dates that they actually occured...but then again maybe it's lots of wishful thinking on the part of II/JG2

NickM

[marsyao]

Originally Posted by NickM

Marsayo:

Certainly LATER in the war they had to account for every dang rivet, bullet & bean--but early on...I get the feeling they may have cut corners here & there;

NickM

NickM, now we are doing the research based on reports that already included those "later on" reports

[Black baron]

Well, all good stuff. This particularly.

Re. P-38 losses on 8th January 1943.

As well as the P-38 losses for the 14th FG of 3 destroyed and 2 damaged the 82nd FG this day apparently lost 4 Lightnings and 2 pilots. No less than 6 separate missions were flown by the 95th and 97th FS, 3 each. This was an unusually high figure at that point in the campaign for this inexperienced group. The 96th FS was non-operational that day. All 6 were bomber escort missions. It appears the following losses occurred;

And this...

I also read in Fighters over Tunisia that US units had a very hard time with record keeping, given the VERY rough conditions on the ground( air raids, lean supplies, few or no 'official' forms & reports to fill out, moving from airfield to airfield)

Seems a hazy topic at best. Spick has 40 books out on WW2 aviation, don't agree on him being unreliable. he even admitted a mistake regarding a pilots 4 engined score of 44. It was typo, 14 correct number said he.

As for Buehligen being a liar, seems a stretch. 800 missions, 112 kills, knocked down 3 times, ( never hit by an enemy a/c according to The Aces Speak book ), one would have to think he was most likely a rather confident person. It's more often the "can't do it" type of person that engages in overexagerration & lies. But then Rudorrfer may prove that theory to be not always the case.

[marsyao]

baron, there are some very huge differences between a lia and one overclaimed sometimes. air combat was not like one watching football on your large-scree television, it was very confuse and messy, one could be a very honost man and tell just what he saw in the combat but still overclaimed heavily

[Six Nifty .50s]

Originally Posted by Black baron

Well, all good stuff. This particularly. Re. P-38 losses on 8th January 1943. the 82nd FG this day apparently lost 4 Lightnings and 2 pilots.

Where is the proof that Bühligen destroyed any of them?

Originally Posted by Black baron

As for Buehligen being a liar, seems a stretch. 800 missions, 112 kills, knocked down 3 times

Based on the huge discrepancy in numbers over time, most rational individuals would not consider some of Bühligen's claims as an honest mistake. Some German officers were awards-chasers who were obsessed with submitting the maximum number of claims.

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi,

I’ve read this discussion with a lot of interest. As co-author of The Focke-Wulf 190 in North Africa, written with Morten Jessen, I thought I might contribute my opinion, and most importantly, some facts.

I should start with some definitions.

Overclaiming, the accidental claiming of too many victories (‘overzealous enthusiasm’ as Jim P. puts it), occurs in most combats. Pilots believe they’ve shot down an enemy aircraft, but in actual fact it is only damaged, or was not actually hit. This is inevitable in the confusion of battle.

Falsification, claiming victories when combat did not actually happen (or ‘intentional deceit’, as Jim P. puts it), certainly occurred, but it was much rarer. There are a couple of well-known cases, most notably the J.G. 27 pilots in summer 1942.

Some Data
The original question asks about Bühligen shooting down P-38s when no losses were actually reported. In Tunisia Bühligen claimed 12 P-38s, so clearly the question refers to that period. Here is some data:

26 December 1942
Lt. Bühligen of 4./J.G. 2 claims two P-38s, Lt. Marx of 4./J.G. 2 claims a P-38, and Oblt. Tonne of 3./J.G. 53 shot down another P-38. One P-38 was claimed damaged.

German claims: 4-0-1 P-38s

The 1st FG had escorted the 97th BG to Bizerta, and the P-38 unit lost two aircraft.

Thus the German claims in this combat were reasonably accurate.

8 January 1943
This was one of the first II./J.G. 2 combats when flying from Kairouan airfield. Lt. Bühligen claimed three P-38s. The rest of II./J.G. 2 claimed seven P-38s destroyed.

German claims: 10-0-0 P-38s

The 14th FG lost three P-38s, along with two more damaged. Martin Gleeson notes that the 82nd FG lost four P-38s. Although the times of the 82nd FG’s missions are not known, they were all to the Kairouan area, and II./J.G. 2 was the only German fighter unit in the region, so we can assume that on one or more of these missions the 82nd FG met II./J.G. 2.

Again, the German claims in this combat are reasonably accurate.

Thanks to Martin Gleeson for providing some information on this date. This fills in a gap in Morten and my book.

It is interesting to note that 8 January 1943 was the last day that Adolf Dickfeld flew as Gruppenkommandeur of II./J.G. 2. This may have had some bearing on subsequent events at Kairouan.

14 January 1943
Lt. Bühligen claimed a P-38F shot down, and other II./J.G. 2 pilots claimed two B-17s damaged. An Italian pilot also claimed a P-38.

German claims: 1-0-0 P-38s

The opposition in this combat was the 71st FS/1st FG, which escorted the 301st BG to Sousse and Sfax. Two P-38s failed to return.

Again, II./J.G. 2 claims were reasonably accurate.

28 January 1943
Oblt. Bühligen of 4./J.G. 2 claimed a P-38 50 km south-west of Kairouan. Two others were claimed damaged. There were also Italian claims for two P-38s destroyed.

German claims: 1-0-2 P-38s

The 71st FS/1st FG lost one pilot shot down, and another P-38 was damaged.

Again, II./J.G. 2 claims were reasonably accurate.

15 February 1943
Oblt. Bühligen claimed three P-38s shot down. In all, II./J.G. 2 claimed ten P-38s shot down, three Spitfires shot down, and one unknown fighter shot down, as well as a B-25 damaged.

German claims: 10-0-0 P-38s

B-25s and B-26s flew a mission to Kairouan, escorted by the 94th FS/1st FG and the 82nd FG, and they were intercepted by FW 190s and Bf 109s soon after leaving the target area (the 12th BG reported 15/20 enemy fighters, while the 82nd FG noted 6/9 enemy fighters). At 17:35 the USAAF reported only one loss in exchange for claims of 3-3-5. I’m not aware of any more American losses, although I’d like to hear from anyone who has details of American P-38 losses on this day.

This is one of the more suspect II./J.G. 2 combats.

12 March 1943
Oblt. Bühligen claimed three P-38s shot down, and Hptm. Rudorffer claimed one B-17 shot down.

German claims: 3-0-0 P-38s

38 B-17s were escorted by 30 1st FG P-38s to Sousse and Enfidaville. There are no known American losses, either B-17 or P-38, in this combat.


So the only dates on which Bühligen claimed P-38s shot down when there were no losses were 15 February and 12 March 1943. On these two days he claimed six P-38s.


II./J.G. 2 and Overclaiming/Falsification
Most of the suspect II./J.G. 2 claims in Tunisia occurred while they were based at Kairouan airfield in central Tunisia in January and the first half of February 1943. II./J.G. 2 pilots based at Kairouan during the period of overclaiming included: Bühligen, Rudorffer, Werner, Karch, Schülze, Goltzsche, Engelbrecht, von Farnholz, Übelbacher, Sonntag, Gäbler, Weißgruber, Jacobs, and Marx.

II./J.G. 2 was usually the only unit based at Kairouan, and it was certainly the only fighter unit based there (except for the Stab J.G. 53 during the Kasserine operation). They were 150 to 200 km from the main German headquarters in northern and southern Tunisia, and reported to the Fliegerführer Tunis once a day, in the evening. The II./J.G. 2 detachment was usually at the most fifteen pilots (for example, on 5 February 1943 there were 13 pilots in the Kairouan detachment, and ten FW 190s).

Thus it was the perfect environment if the II./J.G. 2 pilots wanted to falsify claims. Rudorffer was the highest ranked officer, and he was surrounded by pilots who had been together in the Gruppe for a while.

Please note I am not saying that falsification of victories by II./J.G. 2 did occur, I’m just suggesting that rarely would a German fighter unit be in such a good position to submit false victory claims. The chances of discovery were very slim, so long as you had the trust of your fellow pilots.

Gaps in the American Records
This is a convenient excuse for the II./J.G. 2 pilots, but it’s simply not true. The 1st Fighter Group has complete records of its operations in the period of II./J.G. 2 over claiming. I have the 14th FG microfilms, and although their records aren’t as detailed as those of the 1st FG, there is enough information to be able to match up claims and losses. Unfortunately I’ve not seen the 82nd FG records, so I generally rely on Shores, Ring & Hess for their Tunisian operations (which is one reason why Morten and I weren’t too definite about II./J.G. 2 overclaiming in our book).

Martin Gleeson mentions the 3rd PRG with P-38s in Tunisia. This is a valid point, but generally II./J.G. 2 was claiming multiple P-38 kills, and the PRG units flew singly, eliminating it as a possibility in most cases.

Rudorffer on the Eastern Front
As for Rudorffer on the Eastern Front, I’m no expert, but I know that in at least one combat he and his wingman were very optimistic with their claims. I should note that I don’t wish to accuse him of anything (I believe he is still alive). Morten and I wrote to him in 2001 asking if he wanted to provide information for our book, but he declined. We wish we could have got his side of the story.



Even if II./J.G. 2 did falsify victory claims in Tunisia, it is understandable. Victories brought medals and hero status, as Six Nifty .50s notes in one of his posts.


I hope some of the above is of interest.

Cheers,
Andrew A.