Pe-2

[HGabor]

Hey guys, why not? Both Me 110 and Pe-2 had two wings, two engines and twin tail!

[Leon]

Well - there is a connection as HGabor wrote
Peshka was based on VI - 100, wich was a prototype of high atlitude two engines heavy fighter having its maiden flight on 22 december 1939.
But.. we may say that two engine heavy fighter idea was quite popular in 1930's.
There are more myths about soviet planes - ie Su-9 being a copy of Me-262.

[kurlannaiskos]

Originally Posted by HGabor

Hey guys, why not? Both Me 110 and Pe-2 had two wings, two engines and twin tail!

the similarities are obvious enough to be ignored.
I thought the point was about stolen designs or technology?

"we may say that two engine heavy fighter idea was quite popular in 1930's"

that is called 'Independant Discovery'

[cheriz]

I was pleased with the overall reaction but it seems to me that at least one of the responders got very emotional. May I remind you that both socialist governments borrowed heavily from each other in many ways . Nazi song which started with ‘My Fuhrer, My Fuhrer, My Fuhrer’ was adopted by Soviets as official Red Force (V V S) anthem starting with
‘And higher and higher and higher. German World War I song ‘I have had a comrade’ was transferred to a Soviet Youth (Young Pioneers) song ‘Young drummer’ obviously the stanzas have been changed but melody remained intact. When it goes to copying military equipment it is undeniable that German medium tank PzK V Panther was greatly influenced by Russian T-34 which by itself was enlarged and modified copy of American T 3 Christie design .By the same token P-51 Mustang would have never been acclaimed as the best fighter of the World War II without Rolls-Royce Merlin engine, and Rolls Royce Merlin engine would have never been crowned as the best engine of its time without American technology of pressurized carburetor. German swept wing technology was adopted by everybody after the end of the war. One of the first Soviet jet fighters MiG-9 was powered by two RD-20 engines which were reproduction of German BMW 003 of World War II. Structure and configuration of famous MiG-15 fighter was greatly influenced by Focke-Wulf Ta 183 and it was powered by Rolls-Royce Nene engine which British labor government foolishly sold to the Soviets in 1946.
Tu-4 Soviets only strategic bomber of late 1940s and early 1950s , capable to reach Continental United States was a direct replica of B -29 absolutely to the last detail .This is undeniably stolen designs and technology. I could give a much longer list of Soviets direct expropriation of western technology but I think at present the above would suffice .
So I would suggest that before delivering :Absolute nonsense. The usual sort of rubbish spouted by those of a political/racist bent to disparage one group or another, to read a little bit more literature , spent more time on the internet and to be less passionate in your expressions . We are all here to learn and to share the information .
Best regards to everybody. Cheriz.

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by cheriz

German World War I song ‘I have had a comrade’ was transferred to a Soviet Youth (Young Pioneers) song ‘Young drummer’ obviously the stanzas have been changed but melody remained intact. When it goes to copying military equipment it is undeniable that German medium tank PzK V Panther was greatly influenced by Russian T-34 which by itself was enlarged and modified copy of American T 3 Christie design .

Well Graham has a point that is well illustrated by this paragraph. Half truths which are combined into "factoids" and influence versus copy.

Influence and greatly influenced blurr into the same meaning as copy.

The Panther design was literally influenced in many ways by the Soviet T34, but again it was not a copy - far from it. Influence can involve a complete oposite in design. The T34 was simplicity itself, the Panther was possibly the most complex "medium" tank of WW2.

The T-34 was pretty unique as a weapons system when it first entered the scene, but by highlighting some technical parts it has become "an enlarged and modified copy" of an older American design (in line with the Zero being a copy of American design, or even the Fw 190 being a copy of an American design by Hughes).

The design was so good, it could only be western / american.

Where the Soviets copied technology it is fairly open and either preceded by licence building or captured (superior) enemy technology, but lets leave some room for their own influential design capability.

I have to agree that even to question the origin of the Pe-2 when you can easily see that its similarity to the Bf 110 is very superficial to being not there at all.

The original question carries a level of provocation.

The answer to the Pe 2 being a direct copy can only be: nonsense!

BTW

Here's some info on Ich hatt einen Kameraden:

Uhland-Gedichte
Selected German Verse by Ludwig Uhland In the original German with a
side-by-side translation in English
BACKGROUND: This Uhland poem—also known as "Der gute Kamerad"—was written in 1809 and later set to music by the German composer Friedrich Silcher in 1825 (using an old folk melody, "Ein schwarzbraunes Mädchen hat ein'n Feldjäger lieb"). Uhland's poem (or Lied) was inspired by the Tyrolian freedom fighters and their struggle against Napoleon. It was popular enough during World War I to be parodied as "Ich hatt' mal Marmelade," reflecting the soldiers' hunger and lack of rations. Although it was written much earlier, the poem/song is often quoted/performed in memory of the veterans of the two world wars and for the German veterans day observance known as Volkstrauertag (on the third Sunday in November).

http://german.about.com/library/blkameraden.htm

The French also sing this song as J'avais un Camerade, but this is IIRC due to the high number of ex-Waffen SS men fighting in the Foreign Legion in the period after WW2.

As you can see it is hardly a ww1 song.

This forum is about discussion and raising questions, but it also demans that you put up an effort to find some answers yourself. As such I am tempted to regard the original question in a dubious light.

Provocative, but with with little value.

Perhaps I'm being too cyical, but helas experience proofs otherwise.

[Leon]

As Ruy Horta wrote - the main subject of this topic was if Pe-2 or its roots VI-100 was a copy of Bf-110. And as many people wrote - it wasn't. It was very similar in designing idea but it was not a copy - in technical meaning of this word (as Tu-4 was for example). Panther wasn't a copy of T-34, Su-9 wasn't a copy of Schwalbe...
I think there is no need to arguee about the influence of western technology on Soviet aviation industry. Becouse it's obvious and well known. Most of soviet aviational engines were copies or developed copies (built on license or not) of French, British or German ones...
There is a very interesting book about German technologies in VVS service:
http://www.armybook.com/summary.html?code=0101007i35

[Graham Boak]

Cheriz, I've been reading the literature from long before the internet was invented. For over 50 years now, and have been professionally employed in aircraft design, performance, operational analysis and comparative aircraft studies. Which doesn't make me omniscient even in those fields, of course, but should make it clear that I have already read a few books on the subject. Perhaps we could compare the sizes of our personal libraries?

No doubt it wouldn't hurt to read a few more, or even reread (again) ones already in the collection. I will say again that the idea that the Pe 2 was a copy of the Bf.110 is nonsense, for it is. Whether the configuration chosen owed anything at all to the Bf.110 is open to considerable doubt, for reasons others have described. However, there is a massive step between choosing a configuration and producing an aircraft.

That the Russians made use of other people's technology at times is indeed true - as did every nation who ever built aircraft (and the tanks you quote). And they in their turn possessed technologies that some other nations did not.

I'd pick you up on a couple of details: just what is the pressurised carburettor that you talk about on the Merlin? If you mean the supercharger, that was widely used on many aircraft and the example on the Merlin was specifically RR technology. Also, the Tu.2 was also indeed a copy of the B-29, but not in every detail. It was armed with 23mm cannon rather than 0.5in machine guns, a fairly significant minor detail, and the engines were being tested/flown in Russian aircraft before the first B-29 arrived on Russian soil. No doubt it helped that much Russian engine technology was developed from earlier US engines. The same, however, is also true about Japanese and German radial engine technologies. And before that, much 1920-30s radial engine technology was based on the British Bristol company's designs. That's just the way things go in engineering.

As to whether I should be less direct in my expression: you may well have a point. On the other hand I feel that noticeboards, like civilisations, are capable of coping with a few outspoken comments in the interests of applying rational thinking.

Ruy does have a specific problem on this board, in common with other boards dealing with Luftwaffe subjects. An interest in Germany of the period does not mean direct love/hate of Nazi-ism, or indeed Communism. His position is made more difficult by threads that do not stem from a genuine spirit of enquiry.

[kurlannaiskos]

Originally Posted by cheriz

May I remind you that both socialist governments borrowed heavily from each other in many ways .

are you aware that Andrei Tupolev,Vladimir Petlyakov, Vladimir Myasischev and Dmitri Tomashevich (and others)were arrested and thrown in prison because someone accused them of spying for the Nazis? does this sound like they were on good terms to you? at the end of the war Nazi troops fled the Russians in massive numbers to surrender to British and/or American troops because they feared for thier lives.

Originally Posted by cheriz

By the same token P-51 Mustang would have never been acclaimed as the best fighter of the World War II without Rolls-Royce Merlin engine, and Rolls Royce Merlin engine would have never been crowned as the best engine of its time without American technology of pressurized carburetor.

I would like to read more on the prussurized carburetor.
weren't later versions of the Merlin fuel-injected?

Originally Posted by cheriz

Tu-4 Soviets only strategic bomber of late 1940s and early 1950s , capable to reach Continental United States was a direct replica of B -29 absolutely to the last detail .

not EXACTLY. American aircraft of the period used the old english system of measurement. (Inches) the soviets were using the metric system and could not copy it exactly ,so they had to substitute the closest metric equivelant. this is what actually slowed down it's development.

Originally Posted by cheriz

The usual sort of rubbish spouted by those of a political/racist bent to disparage one group or another, to read a little bit more literature , spent more time on the internet and to be less passionate in your expressions . We are all here to learn and to share the information .

actually I try to be non-political and non-racist and do not seek to disparage anyone. the problem is that the Cold War has turned our friends into enemies and the truth into lies.
furthermore, I strong encourage everyone to read, be it books, magazines, newspapers or the internet. reading is almost a lost art and most people do not know what they are missing.
the best use of the internet is the free and open exchange of information, ideas and images for the betterment of everyone's education.
as for being less passionate about our expressions , if they are not passionate then they are not expressions.
without some passion I don't think there would be many of us here doing this. it is the passion that drives us, be it passion for the truth or history or simply for the sake of curiosity.

this is not meant as a personal attack against you or anyone else, just a pleasant reminder that we all make mistakes. that is what makes us human.

"I strive to find a balance between head and heart"
-Thomas Jefferson-

[Jukka Juutinen]

Graham, don´t get me wrong but for an aircraft engineer to miss the pressurized carburettor is unacceptable! However, cheriz´s claim is also pure BS. The device in question is of course the ubiquitous Bendix-Stromberg pressure density carburettor, a single point injector in fact. However, the SU (Skinner´s Union) anti-G carb worked very much OK in the 60 srs Merlins. There is basically very little to choose between the performance of SU and Bendix carburetted engines.

The SU also developed a single point "speed density" single point injection system with a 5-plunger swash plate pump (used e.g. in the Mk 130). The RR developed this further using gear type pump. This was used in later Griffons.

Of course, German direct injection systems were the best fuel systems there was (don´t fall into simplistic Stanley Hooker inspired claims).

As an aside about gaps in trained personnel knowledge. Last Fridai I had a chat with a retired FinnAF Lieutenant. His job was to teach future AF mechanics on the secrets on aircraft engines. Some weeks ago he had atttented some event at his former base and had had a chat with a young cadet officer who had already had several years of mechanic training behind and even worked as a mechanic with the border guard. The pal of mine had asked this guy a couple of basic questions. The answers had been pretty frightening. That trained mech did not know:
-what is the purpose of the boost cauge in the Vinka´s (piston engine trainer) cockpit
-what is equivalent horsepower in turborops (he had no idea about turboprops´ exhaust thrust)
-that a jet engine produces more thrust in cold weather than in hot weather
-and that the jet engine thrust diminishes with altitude

As I heard this over the phone, I was pretty shocked at what kind of morons they pass thru the exams.

[Kutscha]

Also, the Tu.2 was also indeed a copy of the B-29, but not in every detail.

Most likely a typo Graham but the Tu-2 was a twin engined, twin tailed medium bomber. The Tu-4 was the from the B-29.