French WW2 decimal score aces

[Moriii]

Originally Posted by knusel

According to this website
http://www.pierre-clostermann.com/victoires.html
the French seem so have acknowledged 33 victories (19+14sh) whereas 23 kills seem to have been acknowledged by the RAF.
He seems to have conducted a lawsuit for that. I wonder if my French is sufficient to understand all that correctly.

That's pretty much it.


Closterman filled a lawsuit against a book published, I believe, in 1991. It's not clear when he went to court because the ruling dates from 2001. A copy of the ruling is at http://www.livresdeguerre.net/forum/...hp?index=37129
(this website, active 10 years ago, is far from reliable, but the copy/paste of the ruling is probably accurate).


The ruling itself is kind of strange. It blames the authors of the book for not making the effort of interviewing Clostermann himself. The ruling also says Closterman is a very respectable person (which he certainly was), suggesting that's enough a ground to assume he is right in all he says. The ruling doesn't say the sources the authors use or the analysis they make is flawed in any way, except they should _also_ have interviewed Clostermann...


There is some Streisand effect in going to court to start with. The book is long forgotten and seems all but impossible to find (it's not even at the BNF). It's hard to believe it had a wide distribution at the time of publication. The whole things sounds a lot like personal feud between Clostermann and one of the authors or the publisher. In all cases, the lawsuit draws attention to the reliability of Closterman ace claims, pretty much the opposite effect of what the plaintif wanted...

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Apparently NO Ju 290 recorded lost on the 20th April 1945...only recorded losses of type on the massive 2nd TAC by Shores and Thomas were on the night of 22nd April and 25th April...by Mosquitos (264 and 409 Sqdns)...so, do not know what was claimed...and no entry on the relevant ORB too regarding this claim or a possible ground victory either!

Imagine Historians being put on jail for writing and re-writing ancient History based on new archives or documents found!

Anyway, his claims (as others too) can be checked with relevant documents, etc...I have tried to match some, since I read and re-read his books, but it is a hard work.

Perhaps his Logbooks will be available for an accurate Historical Research, by accredited French Historians (we do have many to quote...)...maybe....

A.S.B.

[PMoz99]

Having looked at the various kill lists for Clostermann, it is my opinion that the one presented by Shores and Williams in AH (AH) is most accurate.
It credits him with 11 confirmed kills + 7 unconfirmed, 2 confirmed probables and 3 unconfirmed, and 9 damaged. I believe confirmation is from squadron records and combat reports. The kills in these numbers include 4 later changed to OTG kills.
Relating this score to the kill markings on his Tempest, you get 11+7+2+3=23 kills + 9 damaged, matching the numbers of black and white crosses.
So, did Clostermann ever state what the markings on the Tempest represent? In a post on another forum relaying the contents of a letter Clostermann wrote in response to questions on his kills, I have seen it said that the black crosses represent confirmed kills and the white crosses probables and OTG kills, BUT this statement is made in brackets, indicating it is likely an addition of the poster and not stated by Clostermann himself. This may hold the key to the various kill lists.
The problems I have with the statement made are -
1. that when you examine the 11 Spitfire kills which are referred to in his DFC, you can't get 11 unless you include the probables, and
2. in that case they can't also be included in the count for the white crosses, and
3. as the kill numbers given in AH include 4 later changed to OTG kills, they also can't be included in the white cross count
Finally, in the post on the forum I mentioned earlier, the poster quotes Clostermann as saying - "the French Air Force - as well as the US 8th Fighter Command, considered aircraft 'probables' and destroyed 'on the ground' as victories. This may explain some of the ridiculously inflated claims we found in the press". Another reason to conclude that the 23 as presented in AH is correct.
Has anyone else formed an opinion on his score?
Peter

[Alfred.MONZAT]

Clostermann produced an official document giving his total score. It display 19 confirmed solo victories some probables and damaged (all are listed). The two DFC documents give each 11 and 12 victories (total 23) which are may be the 19 confirmed in the first place + 4 confirmed later (after crash site were found or things like that) or maybe includes the probables. Then, the French Air Force count the shared victories as complete victory whereas the RAF does not count them at all in general. So with 14 such victories, Clostermann tally for the Armée de l'Air is 33 (but this value should only be used to compare with tally established with the same method).

[FalkeEins]

to respond to Peter's post. Clostermann's letter to Scale Aircraft Modelling magazine in 1982 was published on their 'Readers Letters' page..

" ..As to my claims, they never changed. They were painted on my Tempest, (see accompanying photo ***) and are substantiated by the following citations and letters. My two DFC citations, by Air Marshal Slessor and AOC 83 Group Sir Harry Broadhurst, are enough for me - "DFC 26/8/44 This officer has displayed outstanding courage and devotion to duty throughout his operational career in the course of which he has destroyed at least 11 enemy aircraft and damaged other military objectives". "Bar 28/5/45 since being awarded the DFC this officer has participated in 70 new operational missions during which he has destroyed a further 12 enemy aircraft. Throughout, Lieutenant Clostermann has displayed outstanding courage and ability, and has proved to be a source of inspiration to all". 23 black crosses and 23 confirmed by my DFC citations. I never personally asked for anything else.... "

**(The photograph that Pierre sent with his letter, with him in the cockpit of 'Le Grand CharIes'~, NV724, JF.E of 3 Sqn., circa July 1945, showing the twenty-three black crosses representing his accredited confirmed 'kills', and the nine white outline only crosses for 'probables' and 'ground kills')

..NB: the aircraft referred to- 'Le Grand Charles'- is SN 222 and NOT his last JF*E, NV 724, although NV 724 featured the same 'scoreboard'

[PMoz99]

FalkeEins - thank you. I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with your post.
Yes, I have seen your blog regarding the 2 Tempests.
My question was whether Clostermann himself explained the markings on his Tempest(s), as the comments in brackets which appear on your blog and in the post I referred to seem to originate with the blogger, not Clostermann.
My opinion (and contention) is that, of the several kill lists I have seen, only that produced by Shores and Williams in AH comes close to matching the Tempest kill markings and citation information. The other lists simply don't match.

Alfred - is a copy of his list available?

Thanks
Peter

[FalkeEins]

Originally Posted by PMoz99

FalkeEins - thank you. I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with your post.

Peter

..just to clarify and respond. You asked "..did Clostermann ever state what the markings on the Tempest represent..?"

From the above he did..