First kill with oblique cannon

[rldunn]

When was the first night victory claimed with oblique mounted cannons? If this was with the Do 217, when was the first Me 110 victory with this weapon? When was the weapon in use by more than one unit?

Rick

[Jon]

Hello Ridunn

Interesting question and one i would like to see answered also.
I think Rudlof Schonert experimented with an MG17 in 1941 set at an angle of 70 degrees but do not know if his experements involved RAF bombers !

[Franek Grabowski]

Cannon or machine gun? Defiant was the first WWII night fighter able to attack from below but the technique dated back to WWI and to modifications introduced by Foster on his SE-5A.

[rldunn]

Question is: Oblique cannon armament by German NFs in WW2. First use, first success, and general useage.

RLD

[Tony Williams]

It isn't entirely clear. The following extract is from
Flying Guns – World War 2: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1933-45 by Emmanuel Gustin and myself:

As a practical weapon system the Schräge Musik was introduced by Rudolf Schönert, who in 4/NJG2 had experimented with upward-firing installations on the Do 17Z‑10 and Do 217J‑1 amidst considerable scepticism from his superiors and his peers. These installations were probably never fired in anger, and success remained absent until Hauptmann Schönert became commander of II/NJG5 in late 1942. A Bf 110 was modified by Paul Mahle to carry two upward-firing MG-FFM cannon, which were installed at the rear of the cockpit. Their closeness to the rear gunner must have been uncomfortable, but on the other hand they were easily accessible to replace the ammunition drums. The Revi 16N gunsight was modified to allow the reflector to be placed above the pilot’s head, while the sight itself was further to the rear. (Later the cockpit canopy was given a bulge that allowed an easier installation of the sight.) The first nightfighters equipped with upward-firing guns entered operations in the late summer of 1943, and during Bomber Command’s attack on Peenemünde in the night of 17/18 August 1943 the system finally had a good opportunity to prove itself. It contributed a lot to the big successes of the German nightfighter force in the winter of 1943-1944; one German estimate was that Schräge Musikaccounted for 80% of the British losses. These culminated on 30 March, when Bomber Command lost 95 of the 795 aircraft sent to bomb Nuremberg.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk

[rldunn]

Tony

This suggests there was no such victory prior to May 43 (such as Schoenert's victory on 21 Apr 43). This would leave the Japanese as the first to employ this arrangement. Is this your understanding?

Rick Dunn

[George Hopp]

This suggests there was no such victory prior to May 43 (such as Schoenert's victory on 21 Apr 43). This would leave the Japanese as the first to employ this arrangement. Is this your understanding?

Rick Dunn

Please make up your mind, Rick. First you asked about 1st usage, which was by the RFC in WW1 when they were used to attack German Zeppelins with incendiary bullets from below because they were unable to climb to the altitude of those craft.

Then you asked about German usage, which again was answered. And, based on that you say that the Japanese must have been the first to use oblique weapons. Based on what has been said so far, there is no proof of that. Especially as we don't know whether or not the oblique installations in the Dorniers were used or not. And, finally, who cares. It was obviously a practical solution to the vexing problem of shooting down bombers with tail guns, and different people came up with the same solution at about the same time.

[rldunn]

Sorry for the confusion. Since this is a Luftwaffe message board and my initial question mentioned "cannon" (not machine guns), and then mentioned Do 217s and Me 110s, somehow I thought the thrust of my question would be understood by most folks (as it was by Tony Williams and others) as inquiring about German developments in WW2. But for any who remain confused and may be able to contribute info, I''ll try again. The development of oblique mounted cannon in the German WW2 night fighter force is generally credited to Hptm. Schoenert. When did this armament configuration first go into use and when was the first victory claimed using what became known as Schraege Muzik? Particularly, can the first German success be dated earlier than the first Japanese night fighter success with oblique cannon (May 43)?

RLD

[George Hopp]

Did you also check as to when the Ju 88 had its first victory?

[Tony Williams]

Originally Posted by rldunn

This suggests there was no such victory prior to May 43 (such as Schoenert's victory on 21 Apr 43). This would leave the Japanese as the first to employ this arrangement. Is this your understanding?

It's not clear. This is why FG:WW2 has to say:

Upward-firing gun installations were developed almost simultaneously in Japan and in Germany. As we have mentioned before upward- and downward-firing guns were installed on several Japanese heavy fighters, both for day and for night operations. However, the Japanese were rather uncommunicative towards their allies, and it must be acknowledged that also in Germany itself several people had submitted the idea to the authorities. One Ir. Poppendiek even proposed a battery of six to eight cannon, which would be triggered by an infrared sensor if the fighter flew below a bomber. Combat experience also contributed to the concept: Occasionally, Bf 110s had flown below the bombers, and opened fire with their flexible guns.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk