Strange case of Walter Dahl

[knusel]

Good morning Johannes,

Dahl might have fooled Hans Ring with a faked Leistungsbuch,
Woidich's 110 kills might be a bogus of Ring himself,
do you think there is hope to clarify Kurt Tanzer's "143" kills by use of the Hans Ring collection ?
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...zer#post258122

Have a good Tuesday,

Michael

[Johannes]

Hi Michael

Agreed, it's hard to tell what is correct here.

Regarding Kurt Tanzer, still very baffling, purely by memory he gets a Ritterkreuz for just thirty or so Russian claims...……..way too few, though he was Rorrenflieger to Oskar-Heinz Bar and Karl-Gottfried Nordmann, he gets wounded in May 1943 and doesn't return to combat(allegedly) until 1945, yet his wound cannot have been that great, wounded in the hand!, you might expect to be flying again the next day, a few months off if you loose the whole hand, again puzzling. The Mikrofilms should have shown him if he claimed before December 1944, but again nothing, I do have him mentioned in a flugbuch of a JG51 pilot during April 1945, so he definitely returned to actual combat as a Staffelkapitan in 1945.

Just where we get the 128 or 143 from originally I just don't know, you would surmise a miss quote of 43, yet we are informed of seventeen Western "kills" including four viermots……...now that's very specific indeed. Ernst Obermaier's biography is very vague after May 1943, in fact nothing until September 1944, though Ernst estimates/guestimates his hundredth falling around June 1944...…...but this is just purely subtracting an average kill rate until the wars end. Basically as John Foreman has always maintained "once published, it's cast in stone" i.e Herr Obermaier's work is so well respected that everybody just copies it.


What we need in a flugbuch, preferably his last, we don't know how he surrendered in 1945, if to the Russian's perhaps he destroyed his last flugbuch, if to the American's it's likely to have been stolen. Hopefully somebody can answer the question of how he surrendered.


Tanzer never really reached any great rank, so I would not expect him to have been making false claims, unless a trade-off with a noteworthy superior, and we are informed by Obermaier about the Bar/Nordmann connection...…….but is even this correct, by my estimates Bar had left Russia before Tanzer's arrival, and Nordmann was rarely flying combat. Another option would be that Tanzer had changed his name and that he had many more claims prior to being wounded , but I don't think this is the case.


I believe that basically we know nothing factual about the guy except thirty something "kills" before being wounded, and that he returned to combat during 1945. Let's the specialists dig into his past, perhaps it'll dig up something.


Ernst Obermaiers first (and inferior of the two) publication was I think in 1968, Tanzer dies in 1960, but there is no reason why they shouldn't have been in communication , or actually met, It is possible that Tanzer stated the figures Obermaier used...…...he lied, but as he doesn't seem to be an over-claimer(With Walther Dahl we can dismiss his honesty), it's not likely. Perhaps also somebody can do a claims/losses comparison, though it wont's be easy with so many claims made.


Kind Regards


Johannes


Johannes

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Hi Michael

Agreed, it's hard to tell what is correct here.

Regarding Kurt Tanzer, still very baffling, purely by memory he gets a Ritterkreuz for just thirty or so Russian claims...……..way too few, though he was Rorrenflieger to Oskar-Heinz Bar and Karl-Gottfried Nordmann, he gets wounded in May 1943 and doesn't return to combat(allegedly) until 1945, yet his wound cannot have been that great, wounded in the hand!, you might expect to be flying again the next day, a few months off if you loose the whole hand, again puzzling. The Mikrofilms should have shown him if he claimed before December 1944, but again nothing, I do have him mentioned in a flugbuch of a JG51 pilot during April 1945, so he definitely returned to actual combat as a Staffelkapitan in 1945.

Just where we get the 128 or 143 from originally I just don't know, you would surmise a miss quote of 43, yet we are informed of seventeen Western "kills" including four viermots……...now that's very specific indeed. Ernst Obermaier's biography is very vague after May 1943, in fact nothing until September 1944, though Ernst estimates/guestimates his hundredth falling around June 1944...…...but this is just purely subtracting an average kill rate until the wars end. Basically as John Foreman has always maintained "once published, it's cast in stone" i.e Herr Obermaier's work is so well respected that everybody just copies it.


What we need in a flugbuch, preferably his last, we don't know how he surrendered in 1945, if to the Russian's perhaps he destroyed his last flugbuch, if to the American's it's likely to have been stolen. Hopefully somebody can answer the question of how he surrendered.


Tanzer never really reached any great rank, so I would not expect him to have been making false claims, unless a trade-off with a noteworthy superior, and we are informed by Obermaier about the Bar/Nordmann connection...…….but is even this correct, by my estimates Bar had left Russia before Tanzer's arrival, and Nordmann was rarely flying combat. Another option would be that Tanzer had changed his name and that he had many more claims prior to being wounded , but I don't think this is the case.


I believe that basically we know nothing factual about the guy except thirty something "kills" before being wounded, and that he returned to combat during 1945. Let's the specialists dig into his past, perhaps it'll dig up something.


Ernst Obermaiers first (and inferior of the two) publication was I think in 1968, Tanzer dies in 1960, but there is no reason why they shouldn't have been in communication , or actually met, It is possible that Tanzer stated the figures Obermaier used...…...he lied, but as he doesn't seem to be an over-claimer(With Walther Dahl we can dismiss his honesty), it's not likely. Perhaps also somebody can do a claims/losses comparison, though it wont's be easy with so many claims made.


Kind Regards


Johannes


Johannes

Johannes, would you like me to share what I have on Tanzer?

[Stig Jarlevik]

Yes please Nick

(Just in case Johannes misses this offer... )

Cheers
Stig

[Johannes]

Hi Nick

Yes, that is a big yes for Tanzer information, anything really, he is actually very obscure, almost unbelievable so considering his Ritterkreuz status.

Your expectantly

[knusel]

Nick Hector claims to have decisive Tanzer documents ?

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by knusel

Nick Hector claims to have decisive Tanzer documents ?

I trust you read his post. No such claim is made there so why not wait and see what he has to say?