Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

[Johannes]

Hi Nick

Thing is that unless the whole staffel is dis-honest then honest or not your probably not get away with anything dodgy, however if your with the Stab of a unit your probably only flying as a Rotte, and your likely to be high ranking......then the opportunity arises!

Therefore Dahl is unlikely to have been able to be dis-honest even if it was within him to be so while a lower rank.

The fictional Abschusseliste could have been made-up by himself or somebody else, however in his 1961 publication he states 133 victories, which would have made him top claimer during 1945......what are the chances of that?

Most of those we have proven to be dodgy are top scoring, and usually high ranking pilots, but the system does not allow them to do this alone, therefore they must bribe their witness with something, promotion, a claim of their own, booze, money, decorations(shared overclaiming would lead to this).

With Eder he earlier flew with JG51 which was generally more honest than JG2, and his rank lower, actually it seems that the Geschwader itself was influenced by whoever was Kommodore at the time when it comes to honesty i.e Wick JG2, Molders JG53/JG51 and Galland JG26. I have never really taken to Galland, yet guess I have got to respect his honesty really! So with Eder I have yet to be convinced of his dis-honesty.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Chris Goss]

I have always tried to avoid such honest/dishonest arguments but with JG 2, for the BofB, Wick plus I Gruppe claimed 207, II Gruppe 61, III Gruppe 17......Common denominator?

[Johannes]

Hi Chris

John Foreman has always thought that JG2 got away with so much as it was the "Richthofen" Geschwader i.e using it's name. More likely is that because of it's location many of it's claims were alleged over water, but your analysis would suggest that if all Gruppen were at full strength then III Gruppe was honest and I Gruppe dis-honest, of course each pilot is different. It's the same with many Geschwader I./JG 54, 7th and 9th Staffel(especially the 9th) JG 52, II./JG 5(especially 6th Staffel.

If under the same circumstances of combat, why should one Geschwader out perform the others by so much. I have always thought that Meimberg and Seeger seemed honest, though both flew with 3./JG 2 at some point, whereas I always thought that Johann Schmid a bit dodgy, but did he continue within JG26?

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Hi Chris

John Foreman has always thought that JG2 got away with so much as it was the "Richthofen" Geschwader i.e using it's name. More likely is that because of it's location many of it's claims were alleged over water, but your analysis would suggest that if all Gruppen were at full strength then III Gruppe was honest and I Gruppe dis-honest, of course each pilot is different. It's the same with many Geschwader I./JG 54, 7th and 9th Staffel(especially the 9th) JG 52, II./JG 5(especially 6th Staffel.

If under the same circumstances of combat, why should one Geschwader out perform the others by so much. I have always thought that Meimberg and Seeger seemed honest, though both flew with 3./JG 2 at some point, whereas I always thought that Johann Schmid a bit dodgy, but did he continue within JG26?

Kind Regards

Johannes

Johannes
Do you have combat reports allowing to recreate events leading to particular vicotries? I am afraid not. Therefore having only partial evidence I find your comments about honesty or dishonesty a bit abusive. I find a number of eg. JG 26 confirmed victories being not supported by Allied data because the Allied aircraft were lost to another reason. An in depth research would require a detailed analysis of all combats, claims and losses, and this is virtually impossible. We also do not know, how many claims of eg. JG 26 were rejected on the initial stage, and only that would give us a fair comparison.
On the other hand it looks JG 2 fared much better in Normandy rather than JG 26.

[Johannes]

Hi Franek

I am not trying to discredit the Luftwaffe, they were far more accurate in their claims than most other airforces. What I have are evidence of 66650 confirmed claims, sometimes this evidence is the abschussemeldung which give about as much evidence as there is about an individual claim. Matching Allied loses to Luftwaffe claims shows there was overclaiming, usually the same individuals time and again. "Viermot" claims are to be treated differently, you didn't need to actually shoot the bomber down to make a claim, this would be a quirk of the points system.

My objective for asking about Eder is to establish the possibility about the "Twelve" jet claims always associated with him. It has been pointed out that the fifty days to acquire his jet kills has been with Karl's help(many thanks for that) been extended to eighty days.....a far more realistic time allowance. I asked about his honesty because I am no expert on that, but after the Walther Dahl saga I am a bit realistic to the possibility that what has been "fact" for seventy years might not actually be so. Fact is there is no flugbucher/abschussemeldung or abschusselist that shows evidence of Eder's claims, but that doesn't mean he didn't make them. With Erich Rudorffer we have the same twelve total of jet claims, only two were generally written about, yet after viewing his flugbuch (one of these wasn't correct) twelve proved to be the correct number, though they were later than expected.

My co-author John Foreman always said that if JG26 claimed they would match Allied loses very well, if JG 2 claimed not very well, if both claimed again not very well, but he would accept that it was JG2 not JG26 overclaiming.

Regarding been lost in another way, actually I am in agreement, in films made during the war British bombers were always reported as lost to flak, whereas the vast majority fell to fighters. Even a pilot being shot down may have been surprised and thought flak, yet could have been caught by a fighter.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Nick Hector]

Hi Johannes,

Your words:
The Luftwaffe, were far more accurate in their claims than most other airforces.

There are plenty of instances of the Luftwaffe overclaiming as bad as any other airforce, and plenty of instances of other airforces claiming just as accurately as the Luftwaffe. Many publications from recent times deal with both sides of some of the various aerial campaigns the Luftwaffe was involved in. Suffice it to say, can we really continue to hold to the contention that the German "system" was ever so accurate?

On 15th February 1943 II./JG 2 encountered the US 1st and 82nd FGs and claimed an entire TEN victories over P-38 Lightnings. Of that ten victories EIGHT were confirmed by this "ever-so-fantastic" German confirmation system. NOT ONE SINGLE P-38 WENT DOWN IN THE ENGAGEMENT.
SOURCE: Focke Wulf 190 in North Africa by Andrew Arthy and Morten Jessen. pp. 108, 160-161

On 9th July 1944 II./JG 26 encountered 453 sqn RAAF over Normandy and Emil "Bully" Lang claimed 3 Spitfires shot down. All of them were confirmed by the "ever-so-rigid" German confirmation system but again, bugger-all were actually shot down.
SOURCES: JG 26 War Diary Part 2 by Donald Caldwell pp. 299-300
2nd Tactical Air Force Volume 2 pp. 212-213 by Christopher Shores and Chris Thomas.


Your words again:
What I have are evidence of 66650 confirmed claims.

In the light of the above, the concept of "confirmed claims" is well and truly an utterly useless construct by now...

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Nick Hector

the concept of "confirmed claims" is well and truly an utterly useless construct by now...

It's a lot safer if you translate anerkannt as "recognised" or "accredited", I think.

[Franek Grabowski]

Johannes

Originally Posted by Johannes

I am not trying to discredit the Luftwaffe, they were far more accurate in their claims than most other airforces. What I have are evidence of 66650 confirmed claims, sometimes this evidence is the abschussemeldung which give about as much evidence as there is about an individual claim. Matching Allied loses to Luftwaffe claims shows there was overclaiming, usually the same individuals time and again. "Viermot" claims are to be treated differently, you didn't need to actually shoot the bomber down to make a claim, this would be a quirk of the points system.

I really do not care about reputation of Luftwaffe, an arm of a criminal regime. I rather mean that the statements are abusive to understanding the history. As yet nobody has done any comparison study of claims, credited victories and losses, and likely never will due to lack of documents. Therefore statement that Luftwaffe victories were more accurate than any other (or most of it) is just unfounded.

My objective for asking about Eder is to establish the possibility about the "Twelve" jet claims always associated with him. It has been pointed out that the fifty days to acquire his jet kills has been with Karl's help(many thanks for that) been extended to eighty days.....a far more realistic time allowance. I asked about his honesty because I am no expert on that, but after the Walther Dahl saga I am a bit realistic to the possibility that what has been "fact" for seventy years might not actually be so. Fact is there is no flugbucher/abschussemeldung or abschusselist that shows evidence of Eder's claims, but that doesn't mean he didn't make them. With Erich Rudorffer we have the same twelve total of jet claims, only two were generally written about, yet after viewing his flugbuch (one of these wasn't correct) twelve proved to be the correct number, though they were later than expected.

I understand the proper approach should be, what he claimed first, what has been initially verified, and what was finally credited. Only after that it is possible to check if any of those claims/victories match to any losses/combats. Aside, I am not sure if victories of so late period of the war were ever confirmed or approved.

My co-author John Foreman always said that if JG26 claimed they would match Allied loses very well, if JG 2 claimed not very well, if both claimed again not very well, but he would accept that it was JG2 not JG26 overclaiming.

As long as we do not know, how the verification process looked like and what were differences between JG 2 and JG 26 subordination in this regard, we cannot make such statements. My impression is, that intelligence officer quickly received a list of wrecks found, and then did a preliminary elimination of claims. Therefore JG 26 looks much better on paper, but we do not know the reality. We also do not know, how many of the victories were shared ones. Plus of course, JG 26 got credit for aircraft lost to another reason.

Regarding been lost in another way, actually I am in agreement, in films made during the war British bombers were always reported as lost to flak, whereas the vast majority fell to fighters. Even a pilot being shot down may have been surprised and thought flak, yet could have been caught by a fighter.

During the night all cats are grey. I am talking about day operations in large numbers. There are numerous instances of aircraft going down to technical reasons, collisions, friendly fire, flak and other. I did not do research for any large scale, selected combats only, so no general conclusion, but a statement of fact.

Best regards

Franek