Der Einsatz deutscher Sturzkampfgruppen gegen Polen,Frankreich und England 1939 und 1940

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by INM@RLM

In passing, it demonstrates conclusively that the St.G. 76/3 aspects in each the statements below from the de Zeng+ Stankey volume "Dive-Bomber and Ground-Attack Units of the Luftwaffe, 1933-1945: A Reference Source, Vol. 1 (2009) are unfortunately, just plain wrong:

1. page 100 (I./St.G. 3) "Formation (July 1940) Formed on 9 July 1940 at Barly (17 km south-west of Arras in north-east France) with Ju 87 Bs using elements of I./St.G. 76."
2. page 124 (StG 76) "9 July: Gruppe disbanded at Barly, with the main element going to form III./St.G. 77 and the lesser element going to form I./St.G. 3."
3. page 139 (III.St.G. 77) "Formation (July 1940) Formed on 9 July 1940 at either Barly/ 17 km south-west of Arras in north-east France or at Caen in Normandy from elements of I./St.G. 76. Elements of II./K.G. 76, which had been ordered to commence conversion to the Ju 87 on 1 February 1940, are also believed to have been incorporated into the new Gruppe. On the other hand, some respected post-war authorities using archival evidence believe the majority of aircrew came from II.(St.)/K.G. 76, while only a few experienced crews and perhaps some ground personnel came from I./St.G. 76."

Now confirmed as reality (but as remarked on at the time by others in the thread here at 13068), I./St.G. 76 was redesignated as I./St.G. 3 on 9th July 1940 ("Am 9. Juli 1940 wurde die I./StG 76 in I. Gruppe Sturzkampfgeschwader 3 (I./StG 3) umbennant und im Rahmen eines Aufstellungsappells in Ouilly le Tesson in Normandie offiziell feierlich in Dienst gestellt." p.168 = On the 9th July 1940 I./StG 76 was redesignated as I./StG 3, a change marked solemnly by a Formation parade at Ouilly le Tesson in Normandy.")

In fact, I./St.G. 76 / I./St.G. 3 was based at Ouilly le Tesson continuously from 30-June to 23-Sep-40. Barly only became the Gruppe's base after that date following the transfer of FK VIII northwards from Normandy and Luftflotte 3 to the Pas de Calais and Luftflotte 2 in September 1940. (The deployment of all Stuka units through the BoB is given in detail across pages 170/1.)

Very good review

I cannot answer for either Larry or Douglas but it would be interesting to hear their side of things. None of them seems to me to treat such details lightly. Pre their book the general story has always been that I.StG 76 became I./StG 3 so nothing new there, we then just revert back to what has always been said.

The base quoted, Ouilly-le-Tesson is even more interesting since it seems both De Zeng/Stankey and Mikael Holm has got that wrong. Not even here has this minor field received much attention from said authors.
http://www.ww2.dk/Airfields%20-%20France.pdf
Unless there is more than one Barly in France the distance between the two places is quite substantial.

Cheers
Stig

[Larry deZeng]

I cannot answer for either Larry or Douglas but it would be interesting to hear their side of things.

Hi Stig -

Since Doug and I wrote our books, new documents have appeared such as the early HW 5 intercepts that more or less cover the campaign in France and the Low Countries. Also, we never did anything with Flugbucher ("u" with Umlaut) because trying to gain access to thousands of those for all of the Kampf-, Sturz- and Schlacht- units would have been an impossible and prohibitively expensive chore. Nor did we interview any of the participants. So there are gaps and errors in our books, which were never intended to be definitive studies but rather intermediate-level capsule histories of the various units. As it was, it took me 25 years to go through all of the NARA microfilm, PRO documents, ULTRA DEFE 3 microfilm, BA-MA Signaturen and other documents as well as hundreds of books and articles that I used. So if Mr. INM@RLM has found some fresh material in this new book that I didn't know about, then I think that's great. I am grateful that the authors of this new book were able to dig deeper and clear up some of our omissions and mistakes.

L.

[INM@RLM]

Stig, you were right to be cautious.
There are two French communes named Barly: Barly (Barly, 80600, Somme halfway between Abbeville and Arras, so about 40 km from each) and Barly (Barly, 62810, Pas-de Calais further east well towards Arras). However, during the BoB both were always in the Luftflotte 2 area.
Barly, 62810, Somme is I believe the one with the BoB Feldflugplatz, the same Barly that was apparently used by III./ZG 26 from around early Aug until Nov-40.
Along with Yvrench (I./ZG 26) and Crécy-en-Ponthieu (II./ZG 26), this Barly is between the rivers Somme (to the south) and the Canche (on the north), all these airfields lying close to the valley of the River Authie running between the two boundary rivers. This looks an entirely logical grouping for a full ZG deployment, using Absprungplätze nearer the coast to actually launch missions.
The De Zeng Airfields Listing for France gives the Barly, 62810, Pas-de Calais location ("landing ground in NE France 17 km W of Arras"). In the context of the other ZG 26 airfields of this period that looks like it needs adjusting. Perhaps there is some archaeological evidence to throw definitive light on this?

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Guys

When googling Barly it is the 62810 which gets picked up (at least initially), but both places are still far off from Ouilly.
Reason I did check was to see if they were close enough to have been used simulataneously, but that is simply not realistic.

With regard to the two Barly places, not a clue which is the correct one.

Cheers
Stig

[Larry deZeng]

Research Colleagues,

Since the "Barly" issue has become something of a thorn, I went back and checked my airfield sources for France, which are extensive thanks to the voluminous wartime output of the A.I.2(b) section of the British Air Ministry. That section's periodic gazetteer of all airfields, landing grounds and seaplane stations, both past and present, in North and West France, runs to 38 pages with 1,178 listings and is dated 1 September 1943. There are another 380 listings for Vichy France. There is only one (1) Barly, a "Former L.G.", and this is at the coordinates and location that I give in my monograph on the Michael Holm website. With all the sources available to A.I.2(b) - frequent aerial photo reconnaissance, numerous POW interrogations, ULTRA intercepts, intelligence reports from the French resistance and M.I.9, etc. - I think the odds of them having the wrong Barly is probably quite remote; possible but remote.

L.

[INM@RLM]

Larry, Thank you VERY much for rechecking this and giving us a clear source reference.
From what you found it is very clear that A.I.2(b) treated Feldflugplatz Barly as located near the Barly further to the east and nearer to Arras. Yes, the RAF may well have flown regular (quarterly?) PR coverages of that site to confirm there was no activity.

For the RAF this was only ever a "Former L.G." (RAF parlance), so there could be more than one way of credibly joining up the same set of dots.

If the original reference to the use of Barly as an airfield came from an Ultra text it would be a toss-up as to whether the RAF associated that with the correct Barly. PR coverage of an area where there never had been an airfield would consistently continue to show no signs of an airfield. Ditto intelligence from the French resistance. I'd doubt that a POW interrogation post-1940 would yield a precise a location: the POW would only know that there had been a Barly in use once upon a time. Unless he was well familiar with a very good set of French maps he wouldn't even be aware that there might be two Barlys set pretty close together.

Basing III./ZG 26 twenty km further east away from the other two Gruppen looks imo a lower probability than a closer grouping, whilst the possibility of the RAF associating the reference to a former temporary airfield with the wrong Barly looks about even stevens to me.
Undoubtedly the Luftwaffe knew which Barly they used. My suggestion is we keep an open mind for now, and wait for a Luftwaffe deployment map marked with Feldflugplatz Barly to surface - or an equivalent definitive contemporary Lw documentary reference with a precise location.

[Larry deZeng]

********BREAKING NEWS********

I just found a 1941 correction in the A.I.3.(b)/AirMin material. The correct coordinates for the REAL Barly are:

50 11 35 N 2 16 40 E
That's 920 meters SSE of Barly village center, and
6 km NW of Doullens town center.

The revised, corrected and subsequently amended entry also says the Germans made minor improvements to this LG at the beginning of 1942 and then obstructed it. In 1943, they handed it over to the local authorities for cultivation.

Hopefully, we now have a resolution, and for me, redemption!

L.