JGr.176 27th september 1939

[Bernard]

Good afternoon,

On the 27th september 1939, GC II/4 claimed two Bf109s of JGr.176.
Could anyone tell me the names of the pilots and their fate.
The circumstances of their loss.
Where they involved in the engagement that cost the life of Sgt Vickers
( No 103 squadron ).?

Thanks a lot.

Bernard.

[Jim P.]

Click on FAQ thread at top of page. This will take to a site that has files with LW claims.

[robert]

Hi,


the only loss was:

27.09.39 JGr176 NN Luftkampf, Notlandung Weisskirchen 5% Bf109 D-1

The FB from 103 RAF was s/d by Gefr.Josef Scherm from JGr152.

Hope this helps.

Robert

[Peter Cornwell]

Confirming Robert's reply, I have the following:

WEDNESDAY, September 27

JGr.152 Messerschmitt Bf109D-1. Shot down by return fire during attack on No.103 Squadron Battles west of Hornbach and crashed near Bockweiler 12.30 p.m. Gefr J. Scherm killed. Aircraft a write-off.

JGr.176 Messerschmitt Bf109D-1. Forced-landed at Weisskirchen damaged in combat with Curtiss H-75As over Wolfersheim, east of Hornbach 1.25 p.m. Probably that attacked by Sgt de La Chappelle of GC II/4. Pilot unhurt. Aircraft repairable.

[Marius]

Hello,

I have analized every single Luftwaffe loss for September 1939 (for my work about Polish campaign) and wrote a huge article, which will be published in the near future. The article will disillusion many people who are seriously referring (only) to OKL loss lists for the period 1939-1940.

For the 27.9. I can tell you the following:

JGr.152, Ogefr. Scherm was shot down by Battles of 103 Sqd RAF.
JGr.176, according to OKL the Bf 109D was damaged 5%, but I think this should be 50%. The Messerschmitt was hit by Sgt de La Chapelle from GC II/4.

Furthermore 2 Bf 109D`s of JGr.176 were shot down by Sous Lt Baptizet and Adj Tesseraud from GC II/4. Uffz. Köpke and Olt. Riner (or Rinow) were killed.

Many regards,
Marius

[Peter Cornwell]

Marius,

Like many other visitors to this forum, & one who tries to make sense of such things - not purely from OKL loss returns, I was interested in your statement that RHINOW & KOEPKE both died in the action with GC II/4 on 27 September 1939.

As this contradicts, in almost every respect, accepted wisdom on the subject may I enquire as to your sources for this alternative version of events ?

Many thanks.

[Marius]

Peter,
sorry, Rhinow was slightly injured, of course. Peter or anybody else, can you confirm with a German document the date of the "collision" as 29.9. ?

The damage of 5% is much questionable, because you will not find any other 5% damage for that period. Apparently 5% damages were not reported to the OKL. Furthermore the Bf 109 force landed with hits from an enemy fighter! The 50% damage is much more likely (maybe "0" had gone lost somewhere on the way to Göring...).

Best wishes,
Marius

[Marius]

Hello again,
my first post was written (mostly) from my mind. Now I can give you a concrete source.

Chris Shores wrote in "Fledgling Eagles" (Grub Street, 1991, page 72) about the air fighting between GC II/4 and JGr.176 on the 27.9. According to this well researched source Baptizet, de la Chapelle & Tesseraud claimed 3 victories. The first as probable over Hornbach - the Bf 109D force/crash landed near Bad Homburg with 50% damage (also Chris Shores is not believing the 5% story, maybe he had a better document?). Then the French formation followed the Messerschmitts to the Lahr area, where 2 confirmed Bf 109 were claimed. Both Messerschmitts indeed went down not far from Lahr (Rhinow at Triberg & Köpke at Unterharmersbach).

I think the date conclusion made by Chris Shores is right (27.9., not the 29.9.). The area of the air combat (Lahr) agrees well with the area of both Messerschmitt losses.
I can confirm that the OKL loss list contains many such date errors (it is not an error actually but a delayed report going to the higher staff). For example we can take the 29.9. again. There is a loss of a Do 17F from 1.(F)/124 (40% damage). But this accident happened one day earlier, on the 28.9.

I hope this will help and make air fighting researching much more productive.

Best wishes,
Marius

[Peter Cornwell]

Marius,

The only source I have that reports the collision involving RHINOW & KOEPKE is the QGM Returns for 29.9.1940 compiled on 1.10 .1940.

Of course, I am aware of what Chris Shores said, & the theory that these losses occurred two days earlier in combat with GC II/4 is compelling, it may yet be shown to be true, but without some (or any) better evidence than you are able to quote it must remain just that - a seductive theory & nothing more.

I accept without question that the loss lists were compiled by human beings & therefore subject to error, but prefer not to tinker with the historical record without good reason. Of itself, a neat theory, however logical & rational, is never reason enough. But what the hey, why let facts get in the way of a good story ?

[Marius]

Peter,
the Western Front is not interesting me as much as Poland. I was not digging so deeply regarding the losses in the West. But maybe you can look for more details of the death pilots at the archives at Aachen or in Berlin (WaSt).

But I am sure that some of the forum visitors could show us a document about the date of death of Uffz.Köpke. Maybe a photo of the grave or a page in a paper from that time (an obituary) or something like that.

On the other hand, if me and Shores should be wrong and the 29.9. right, what French aircraft in this area were attacked by both pilots on that particular day? I read something in the Batailles Aeriennes series and in other sources. So far no single author wrote about the type (or unit) of the attacked aircraft. And everybody is repeating the (GQM) date 29.9. without deeper research (?).

The GQM loss list for September 1939 (without any details on 1th and 4th) contains appr. 50 such date "errors"! I will ask around for Köpke`s death. Maybe we will find the hard evidence.

Marius