List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

[schwarze-man]

Thanks for posting your info about the DB610 gentlemen! I have many questions about 610 engine numbers and dataplates. The DB610 was constructed from two DB605 engines, paired through a common drive to a single propeller. However, the two DB605 component engines were not standard DB605's . Probably for harmonic vibration reasons of the coupled engines, the firing order was changed from 1,8,5,10,3,7,6,11,2,9,4,12 of a standard DB605 to 1,11,2,9,4,7,6,8,5,10,3,12 of a DB610 component engine. The cylinders are numbered right bank 1-6 and left bank 7-12, both bank numbering starting at the front. This firing difference was achieved with the same crank but, the camshafts, ignition harness and injection pump delivery plumbing had to change to match the changed firing order. Additionally, the righthand component engine had a complete mirror arrangement of supercharger, boost pipes with throttles and rear gearcase to accommodate its air inlet on the righthand side instead of the left side. The component engines were designated DB605W and DB605X for left and right component engine. Now, this leads me to ask how the engines were identified in practice? The DB type numbers for the component engines were DB605W and DB605X. Were these component engines given ID plates with this designation and numbering within the DB605 series? I can imagine that they did because, a problem with a component engine might require that it be exchanged for another. Did the DB610 complete "engine" have a complicated data plate (maybe on the combining gearhousing?) that listed the component engines fitted and, with spare spaces for changes to the component engines? Cheers

SM

[Dénes Bernád]

A small mystery. What kind of engine was this one, identified as "V 17"?

[schwarze-man]

Originally Posted by Dénes Bernád

A small mystery. What kind of engine was this one, identified as "V 17"?

Hi Denes,
I only see a written title "Flugzeug Werk-Nr. 13878 Motor DB 605 A-1 Werk-Nr. V17".
From this I would expect this would be the Bf109 13878 with the engine prototype DB605 V17. However, if this is correct, I think the caption saying DB605 A-1 V17 is a little unusual. A-1 identifies an A-1 production engine. I believe that the prototype engines were DB605 V?? , initial 0 series engines were DB605 A-0.

Cheers

SM

[Dénes Bernád]

The engine was not a prototype, it was a DB 605 A-1. The construction number was given as "V 17". The other engines in this list are identified with proper Werknummern, except for this one. That's why I sought the opinion of others, to solve this small "mystery".

[schwarze-man]

Hi Denes,
The Werk.Nr V17 on the engine ID plate would be very unusual to see. Photos often show V engines with the V number painted/stenciled on the engine. However, I am not aware of any authentic photo's of V engines with their ID plates? I have tried to help with some info from a simple image of a typed caption with no other description or picture of the engine in question. I apologise if I am unable to answer your query. BTW, have you looked through the list of 744 odd DB601 and 605 engine Werk.Nr that Matti posted? Cheers

SM

[schwarze-man]

Hello to all!
I have been trying to analyse the fantastic list of 744 DB601 and 605 engines posted by Matti Salonen at posts #13 and #19 on page 2 , Thanks Matti!
It is quickly apparent, even from the early DB601, that the engines have a wide range of numbers. I have decided to try and correlate these and fit the listing into a structure. For this stage, I am working on the DB601 listings as these are relatively easy to ID engine type from the Bf109 type and, these DB601's have the 5 digit numbers without complication. The data from Matti shows about 238 engines in the DB601A, N and E production. Although further DB601 types were produced, I consider that the spread of batch numbers would roughly incorporate the other versions and the Bf109 use would be the dominant user of the DB601. The 238 odd engine sample is AFAIK a random list and represents approx 1.25% of DB601 production. However, the numbers available to count here are still considerable and, given the random spread, seems a reasonable sample but, obviously all engines are not listed and the statistical accuracy is not absolute.
The data in the table progresses chronologically. The engine numbers start in blocks and, although this looks random at first glance, it can be seen that the way the numbers fall, reflects the way that the data was recorded, possibly from losses, and makes sense.
There appear to be very few obvious errors in the recorded numbers.
I deduced that the Block numbers were most likely in allocations of 10,000. I saw this through the rough sorting of the data. The Blocks are not all complete and, where a further higher number is not recorded, I take this as the last production. However, where subsequent Blocks follow closely or sequentially, I deduced that these Blocks were complete. The engine numbering continues through the Blocks as the different engine versions came on production ie. DB601A, DB601N and DB601E.
OK, I will be back later today with the results! Cheers

SM

[schwarze-man]

To continue, Looking at just the first 15 entries in the listing for the DB601A for instance shows engines with numbers in Blocks 1xxxx, 2xxxx, 3xxxx and 6xxxx, all the DB601A Block numbers with listings in fact. The low xxxx Block seems strange. This xxxx Block might have included the DB600 production which was mainly at Berlin Marienfelde (Werk 90) with 1,184 engines and Genshagen with 690 engines according to BIOS. This would still leave approx 8,000 available numbers in the xxxx Block. However, these sub 1xxxx numbers hardly appear, I can only see two possibles in this Bf109 listing, one of those is a repeat of the A/C number (7184) and probably an error, the other (2179) is shown as a DB601N which have no other low numbers but, there are many DB601N examples in the Block 2xxxx such as 21705 and so 2179 might be an error. Also, in the Bf110/Me410 listing there is 1295 and 6882. Now, 1295 should fall in the DB600 production (just 1,874 engines). I have seen a crashed DB601A which was built with DB600 cylinderblocks. I have no better info on these sub 1xxxx numbers. The listing is almost devoid of them, whereas it should have a reasonable number. I suspect that the DB600 was built in the easy days of just 4 figure numbering of the DB600 in just two factories and so engine numbering was simple. The multiple Block system of engine numbers allocated to individual factories would seem logical and could have been introduced with the changeover to the DB601 production. It should be realised that the engine numbering was a considerable production workload and administrative task. The engine numbers were stamped and etched onto almost all engine components. Overall, I want to see if I can correlate the number samples from the listing with engine production numbers and, possibly, production factory.
Cheers

SM

[newcomer]

Originally Posted by schwarze-man

Hi Denes,
I only see a written title "Flugzeug Werk-Nr. 13878 Motor DB 605 A-1 Werk-Nr. V17".
From this I would expect this would be the Bf109 13878 with the engine prototype DB605 V17. However, if this is correct, I think the caption saying DB605 A-1 V17 is a little unusual. A-1 identifies an A-1 production engine. I believe that the prototype engines were DB605 V?? , initial 0 series engines were DB605 A-0.

Cheers

SM

In the book "Messerschmitt Bf 109, The Yugoslav Story, Operational Record 1939-1953, Volume II", by Ciglic, Savic and Micevski, in the list of Yugoslav AF register of Bf 109G, page 188, for the two-seat Bf-109G YAF s/n 9943 had DB 605 V13.

[schwarze-man]

Originally Posted by newcomer

In the book "Messerschmitt Bf 109, The Yugoslav Story, Operational Record 1939-1953, Volume II", by Ciglic, Savic and Micevski, in the list of Yugoslav AF register of Bf 109G, page 188, for the two-seat Bf-109G YAF s/n 9943 had DB 605 V13.

Thanks for that. These details are interesting, especially if there is an explanation and photo's of the plates. Cheers

SM

[schwarze-man]

Further to my posts #68, 69 and 70, I have further considered the apparent lack of low numbers from a xxxx ( up to 9999) Block. If the first 2,000 or so numbers were allocated to DB600 production, this would leave still leave 8,000 odd numbers unused. I do not think I have the evidence for the use of these numbers in this data. 8,000 would be nearly 80% of DB601A production. Plus the fact that the other engine numbers already add-up to the known production of DB601A, and also the DB601 production figures of all types. There are no "holes" in the production numbers. Now, there could well have been some carry-on numbering after the DB600 production, possibly before the full scale Block numbering was introduced. Maybe numbers were initially split in 5,000 Blocks, Marienfelde with 1 to 4999 and Genshagen with 5001 to 9999 ? I simply have no information about DB600 engine numbering. Overall though, if more than a few DB601's were produced with low numbering, there are two points: First, the total engine numbers from the overall engine numbering data would show it and, secondly, the low numbered engines would appear in the data in a statistical ratio, but they don't. Cheers

SM