Luftwaffe Personnel spying for Allies?

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, Nick

So - what you are saying is that the headings of virtually all the documents in the HW 5 files are to be discarded, and that they are to read:

Intercepted coded enemy radio traffic says that....

Instead of:

Norse and Danish sources report

On 20/6 source was able to see

etc etc etc

as shown in the following documents:

Example 1:
http://www.ahs.no/discussion_images/HW5-1-001.JPG

Example 2:
http://www.ahs.no/discussion_images/HW5-1-002.JPG

Example 3:
http://www.ahs.no/discussion_images/HW5-1-003.JPG

Example 4:
http://www.ahs.no/discussion_images/HW5-21.JPG

There are hundreds (or more) like these, and I would really like to see a confirmation that none of these messages came from humint sources.

But then I guess I have been tricked by the british intelligence. I am also confused as to how the codes were solved if the transmissions were incomplete (as hundreds of these mesages imply that parts are missing...), for one I thought that the sign on sign off signals or "cribs" were a vital part when breaking the codes, and that once the settings for the code machines were known, the entire message could be decoded? I am also the curious to why the british are constantly misidentifying units (especielly when regarding roman vs arabic numbering), as the germans usually (have been through more original german messages than I would like to remember...) used the designation röm for roman in their messaging. Did the codebreakers miss that?? Does an archive that contain the decrypts as they really looked exist?

As I know that norwegians were using radio transmissions to send information to the allies during the war, could someone then please relay information here on where that intelligence material are in the archives?

Regards,
Andreas

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken

Hi, Nick

So - what you are saying is that the headings of virtually all the documents in the HW 5 files are to be discarded…

Not discarded but (I believe, anyway) understood as a "human" analogy for a "signals" reality so that "in a file marked Luftflotte 2" means "in a signal from Luftlotte 2" and "smudge" means "reception unclear."

I am also confused as to how the codes were solved if the transmissions were incomplete (as hundreds of these mesages imply that parts are missing...)

I guess that incomplete transmissions are just a function of the radio equipment then available and the range over which some of it was picked up. Also, I don't know if more Germans were transmitting than British people were listening!

I'm not sure of the process to get back into an interrupted message. You would have the daily key and the individual message setting but I'm not sure what you did from there: test a few thousand possibilities? However there was an upper limit on transmission length after which you broke the message into two or more parts, so maybe they just missed a whole part sometimes?

I am also the curious to why the British are constantly misidentifying units (especielly when regarding roman vs arabic numbering), as the germans usually (have been through more original german messages than I would like to remember...) used the designation röm for roman in their messaging. Did the codebreakers miss that??

I am familiar with «ROEM. EINS JG 2» and so on in German signals and sometimes that appears in the decrypts but elsewhere the analysts comment on an "obvious mistake" by the sender. Many senders seem to think that NSG 1 and NSG 2 were Geschwader, for example, rather than Gruppen. Also, by late 1944, the Germans aren't using plain language in their original messages. In 1944–45 they started using invented words to denote units or classes of unit: GAMOZ for Luftwaffenkommando West, GAMPY for Luftflotte 4; GEKEM for a Jagdkorps, GEPAX for a Flak Division, GAUTA for a Chief of Staff; GEKAT IX is IX. Fliegerkorps. I keep finding new examples down to Staffel level.

Does an archive that contain the decrypts as they really looked exist?

Material HW1 is as close to the original as I know but the story is that most of the material was burned in about 1946 to preserve the secret. I would like to have had the "German Books" reference volumes compiled about people, units and airfields etc. from information in the decrypts.

As I know that Norwegians were using radio transmissions to send information to the allies during the war, could someone then please relay information here on where that intelligence material are in the archives?

I would imagine that MI6 or SOE would have had these. AFAIK the files of SOE have been released but (and this is true!) it's only about 10 years since Britain even officially admitted to having a Secret Service. Some files have now been released I think but I don't know if they have reached 1939–45 yet.

Andreas[/quote]

P.S. it was interesting to see your material from 1940–41. They had changed the presentation a lot by 1944–45 (which I have been working on).

[RodM]

Hi Andreas,

from looking at the JPEGs, IMHO, all of the information could be explained as being from Enigma signals - operational orders/operational reports etc.

I will endeavour to post an example of a message in its original format (i.e. full text) as these exist in HW 1.

I completely agree with Nick as it is illogical that humint would go through Bletchley Park.

The reason why some unit IDs are wrong is probably because the Enigma transmissions weren't fully in cleartext. References to sender/recipient and units were coded and these had to be decoded even once the Enigma message was decyphered. As an example,

NABBE 4 = NJG 4
NABCI = I./NJG 4
BABUC = III./NJG 4
GENRO 3 = 3 Jagd Division
GEDNA = Luftflotte Reich

Cheers

Rod

[Pierre Renier]

Hi Andreas

Some years ago now I wrote an article for a local history publication in which I used material from HW5/2 and HW5/3, calling the article "Red Enigma, Boniface and the Y service - events of 27th June to 1st July 1940", in Channel Islands Occupation Review No.28, p31-41.

Red because this was the name used by BP for the first Luftwaffe enigma codes broken. These messages had a very selective distribution in Whitehall, and as the Admiralty at the time was the most closely tied with BP they insisted this had to be in a undisguised form. Problems arose because the material passed on to Military Intelligence and Air Intelligence went via the SIS who to protect sources said it originated from an agent called Boniface. From both MI and AI's perspective this meant it was a Humint source and not as was the reality Sigint, so accordingly was not given the full benefit of being highly reliable intel. Later on the true value of the "source" was properly appreciated and this led to the material being more clearly labelled with the CX indicator.

I hope this reads clearly and helps explain why being air material it refers to sources, but with the added rider of being CX material, i.e. Luftwaffe Enigma.

Kind regards
Pierre

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, Pierre

Thanks a lot for the information. Important that this discussion brought a clarification about the origin of this material.

Not strange then that they had to stop making the summaries - must have kept a couple of typists busy just with inventing where the stuff should be labeled as coming from! (It's a joke!!)

I know that Bletchley Park (at least it says so in written sources) never were 'found out' by the germans, how much of this stuff seeped back from other sources that saw it? Anyone got an idea about that?

Regards,
Andreas