Turin Raids 1943

[smudger3]

Hi Ludovica .

Thank you for the detailed reply. It gives me something to work on.

I am currently listing all the No.3 Group crews that operated on the two Turin raids in question.This will include all references to fighter activity, encounters and sightings. If you are interest I will forward it on on completion. All details
are taken via the squadron ORB's, Base and Station Records Books.

Once again, Thank you my friend.

Steve

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hi Ludovico

I am a bit puzzled about some of "your" AT Gruppi.
According to Courage Alone

3 Gruppo still belonged to 53 Stormo
150 Gruppo did likewise
151 Gruppo was also based at the time at Caselle (also belonging to 53 St) but not listed by you.

I have no Stormi listings, so I don't really know if and when that unit was disbanded or not.

2 Gruppo still belonged to 6 Stormo (based at Genova)

The same here. Dunning does not report 6 Stormo as disbanded.

Your comments appreciated.

Also does anyone have a full Stormi listing during the WW 2 period and which Gruppi that belonged to them at any given period?

Cheers
Stig

[Gielle]

Waiting for the Ludovico Slongo's answer, I can try to make a little explanation: Gruppo Caccia Terrestre is the Regia Aeronautica way to indicate a Fighter Group, usually made up of three Squadriglie (with a nominal strenght of twelve AC each).
Two Gruppi Caccia terrestri used to be attached to a Stormo. If a Gruppo was Autonomo (Aut), that meant that it wasn't depending from any Stormo. In other words, it was on his own, with its three (or sometimes four) Squadriglie.
Regarding the 150 GCT, it was depending from the 53 Stormo only until October 1940, when it was transferred from Northern Italy (where it had partecipated to the war against France) to Albania, to support the impending Italian attack to Greece, and it was made Autonomo.
From oct 40 on, 150 GCT operated as Gruppo Autonomo until the Italian Armistice on 8 Sept. 43, when, as Slongo said, it was in Tourin Caselle, without AC, badly depleted after the bitter fighting in Sicily during earlier July and August.

[Ludovico Slongo]

Dear Stig,
I can only confirm what I told to Steve, but I'm adding some explanations to better corroborate my data.
3° Gruppo C.T. (Caccia Terrestre - day fighters) was originally (I mean on June the 10th 1940) part of 6° Stormo togheter with 19° Gruppo Combattimento -which wasn't a fighter unit but was a ground attack unit flying Breda BA 88 temporarily attached to it. 19° Gruppo was disbanded on December the 1st 1940 while 6° Stormo was "suspended" on July the 19th 1941 and never reformed. Since that moment 3° Gruppo became an autonomuos unit and fought over the Mediterranean in North Africa and in Sicily until the moment it was retired to Turin -still as an autonomous unit.
2° Gruppo C.T. on the other hand, was part of 6° Stormo in the thirties but became an autonomous unit on June the 3rd 1940 so before the beginning of the war. Sice that moment the unit remained an autonomous one fighting over Greece, North Africa and Malta. 2° Gruppo was "suspended in November 1942 and reformed, this time in fact as an Intercettori (interceptors) unit in May 1943, retaining the two Squadriglie structure of the Intercettori units.
I didn't mention 151° Gruppo, (you are right) but only because I considered it part of the already mentioned 53° Stormo.
This unit at the beginning of the war was formed by 150° and 151° Gruppo C.T. then on September the 9th 1940 it lost 151° Gruppo -that went to North Africa where it fought as one of the most successful CR 42s units in theatre- and took on charge 157° Gruppo. Then on October the 23rd 53° Stormo lost also 150° Gruppo that went to Greece -where it fought with distinction suffering and inflicting quite heavy losses. Since that moment 150° Gruppo remained an autonomous unit also fighting in North Africa and over Sicily. 53° Stormo instead lost 157° Gruppo and was "suspended" on February the 25th 1941 only to be rebuilt on January the 1st 1942 on two Gruppi: 151° and 153°. This was its composition also on August 1943 in Turin, this I specify also for Steve's benefit.
In fact I didn't took the time to check my copy of "Courage Alone" but from what you said it seems to me that it contains some inaccuracies regarding the composition of the above mentioned units, -more that comprehensible, in my opinion, in such an encyclopedic work.
Regarding the Stormi/Gruppi listing you asked about, it exists (even if only in Italian language) was prepeared by Tullio Marcon in 2000 and published by the Italian Magazine "Storia Militare". If you give me an appropriate mail address I'll detail better this aspect.
To Steve,
thank you, any information on RAF raids on Northern Italy you'll be so kind to share will be more than appreciated, but again I'm not being able to help you before next spring at least.
To Gianluca,
your site is simply WONDERFUL in particular the combat history of 150° Gruppo (based on primary sources) that it contains -but you have to speed up the job of compilation... I can't wait to see it finished! And maybe add also some data coming from French, Greek and British sources (at last those already available on the 1940-41 combats). I discovered the site only last week and I should confess that every day since then I was tempted to join it .

Ciao to all

Ludovico.

[Gielle]

One last thing about Courage Alone by C. Dunning. As the author states at the beginning of the chapter devoted to the Gruppi operations (p. 26 of the Italian edition), in the heading he pictures the situation on 10 Jun 1940, when Italy entered WW2 by declaring war on UK and France.
That's why 150° Gruppo CT is reported being part of 53° Stormo, as it actually was on 10 Jun 1940. Later, as also Dunning reports, on 23 Oct 1940 the Gruppo became Autonomo (meaning it wasn't anymore depending from 53° or anyelse Stormo) and transferred from Italy to Albania.

To Ludovico Slongo.
Many thanks for your kind words. We are looking forward to read you in our forum dedicated to historical themes. It would be a great pleasure.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Correct
My mistake. I didn't expect the units to have become autonomous that early. Just checked Dunnings latter text. Sorry about that.

I would very much appreciate a Stormo listing with corresponding Gruppi attachments

I can be reached on e-mail hagel.jarlevik@bredband.net

Many thanks to you both for updating my meager knowledge of the Stormo units

Cheers
Stig

[smudger3]

Following on from my posts regarding the No.3 Group attack on Turn on the night of August 16/17th 1943.

Although the main target was “Turin”, 25 selected crews drawn from each of the participating squadrons attacked target T.67 without PFF support.

Unfortunately I have been unable to determine the identity of T.67, I have checked the squadron, station and group ORB’s. The squadron’s mention a “special” target.

Any assistance on this will be welcome.

Regards

Steve