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Old 2nd January 2020, 00:52
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2005
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Thanks Christer.
Yes, I know that site (and a few others), but the core info in this research was straight from TsAMO docs (combat unit diaries, maintenance-, mechanical-papers: notes and photocopies) from Podolsk, Russia, provided by local Russian researcher colleagues, having access to the Archives and helping our museum. As far as I know, most of these docs are not available on the internet. For several years, I have been the volunteer 'database admin' of the Szolnok Aircraft Museum (living abroad), which organized aircraft recovery and restoration for all, including soviet aircrafts in Hungary. To be able to identify the recovered remains we needed to build a detailed database of them, including AC serial and aircraft-engine serial numbers, crew lists, etc. on ALL lost soviet warplanes in Hungary, mainly in 1944-45, - and a few after 1942. These were lost planes of the soviet 5th Air Army (2nd ukrainian Front), 17th Air Army (3rd Ukrainian Front), plus some 8th Air Army and Long-Range Air Army planes. ALL losses in the country. Using this database we were able to identify several soviet planes and through them a few missing crewmembers as well. Luckily the engine serials are still well visible on most of the recovered engines and the AC serial is also visible in some cases. (See IL-2m3 S/N: 1875397 on a recovered aluminum fragment from the plane of the Ml.Lt. Evgenii Pavlovich Kartashev - Sgt. Vladimir Alexeevich Gladkov crew.)
For a long time I have not even thought to use this database to check Axis claims, we used it only for plane IDs. But then I read Helmut Lipfert's book and randomly compared it to the soviet losses. I was positively shocked to see that almost all of Lipfert's claims match the soviet reports. Then -just out of curiosity-, I checked Hartmann's claims. Telling you, it was a negative shock!!! To me: a 'historical-scale' shock to realize, how weak his claims and his '352' can be... Now I know, only about 30% of his claims were potential victories, the rest were just damaged planes (at best) for the time period of his service in Hungary. This is a unique situation to be able to compare claims to verified losses of the other side. No room for excuses, legends, and no room for bla-bla...
That's it. Cheers,
Gabor
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