Hartmann: claims vs. victories

[HGabor]

Hartmann's 352nd:

352. 8.5.1945 8:30-9:20 Yak-9 - OVERCLAIM - Stab I./JG 52 Brünn area: at 4000 m

Eric Hartmann's probably most symbolic, 352nd victory claim on May 8, 1945 was a soviet Yak-9 fighter in the Brünn (Brno) area at 4000 m. This area was taken by the 2nd Ukrainian Front, covered by their 5th Air Army. Checking all air activity of the 3 GvIAK (fighter command of the 5 VA: 6, 13, 14 GvIADs) we can conclude, that this claim was an overclaim.

The 3 GvIAK reported neither dogfights, nor losses on May 8, 1945. The only event was a brief encounter of recce. planes and 2 Bf 109s in the Znojmo (Brünn-SW) area. But no dogfight, no losses reported. Perhaps it was just a coincidence, but Yak-3 fighter, S/N: 45(292)35 of 5 VA, 3 GvIAK, 6 GvIAD, 85 GvIAP, 1st Sq. was repaired after mission due to radiator damage. But 85 GvIAP report clearly states that they had no combat losses in the entire month of May, 1945, plus Yak-3 No.4529235 was repaired in only 40 minutes at the base.

2nd Ukr. Front, 5 VA (90 GvShAP) lost only 3 IL-2s this day (S/N: 9884, 12854, 12888)

4th Ukr. Front, 8 VA, 565 ShAP lost 2 IL-2 (S/N: 9816, 10529), 996 ShAP 1 IL-2 (S/N: 18845111), 571 ShAP 3 new IL-10s (S/N: 1892604, 1890604, 1893203) over Czech. (Not all combat losses.)

Gabor

[Nick Hector]

Gabor,

Exceptional!!

...As usual.

Do you have anything else on the final victories. No.350 is also of course, very interesting

Nick

[HGabor]

Thanks Nick,

Hartmann's 350th claim was also a soviet Yak-9 fighter on April 17, 1945. Unfortunately no further details are known about it. Anyways, the 5 VA this day had a Yak-9 combat loss indeed, its details are known, but due to the lack of information on Hartmann's side, they cannot be compared. But let's be nice, and let's say this was a potential/legitimate victory for him:

350: 17.4.1945 - Yak-9 - POTENTIAL VICTORY - Stab I./JG 52 -

On April 17, 1945 the 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 151 GvIAP lost a brand new Yak-9U fighter, the newest model of the Yak-9 family at that time, built in the Omsk-factory. (Zavod 166.)

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 151 GvIAP, Yak-9U (S/N: 42166074), lost in a dogfight near Rapovice. Pilot, Gv.Capt. Egor Vasilevich Vasilevskii, (25+2 victories ace, HSU - Hero of Soviet Union) was unhurt. Between 18:00-18:30 local, he led his Yak flight against Bf 109s and Fw 190s and downed two of them. At the moment of his 2nd victory of the day, his plane was hit by (report says) flak. (But it could be fighter attack too from back, below.) He quit combat and returned to his side where he belly landed successfully.

Other fighter 'losses' in 5 VA on April 17, 1945:

5 VA, 3 GvIAK, 6 GvIAD, 85 GvIAP, 1st Sq. has written-off a Yak-1B (S/N: 29173) due to wear and tear.

5 VA, 279 IAD, 486 IAP, La-7FN (S/N: 45210925) was lost to flak. While escorting IL-2 Sturmoviks, plane was hit by small calibre flak and belly landed at Mutenice(?). Pilot, 1Lt. Constantin Pavlovich Burikinun was unhurt, plane later repaired.

Additional info for Hartmann's 352nd claim on May 8, 1945: Beside 5 VA, 3 GvIAK, neither 5 VA, 331 IAD, nor 5 VA, 279 IAD suffered fighter losses! Missions flown by 5 VA on May 8, 1945:

142 IL-2 flew 188 missions
116 Yaks flew 180 missions
90 La-5,-7 flew 126 missions
47 Po-2 flew 129 missions
11 (511 ORAP) recce. Pe-2 flew 11 missions (one each)
9 (218 BAD) A-20G Bostons flew 9 missions (one each)
.................................................. ...........................
No fighter losses!

Cheers,
Gabor

[rof120]

"Missions flown by 5 VA on May 8, 1945:

142 IL-2 flew 188 missions
116 Yaks flew 180 missions
90 La-5,-7 flew 126 missions
47 Po-2 flew 129 missions
11 (511 ORAP) recce. Pe-2 flew 11 missions (one each)
9 (218 BAD) A-20G Bostons flew 9 missions (one each)"

I guess you mean sorties.

One sortie = one flight performed by one aircraft. 9 sorties = one flight each performed by 9 AC.

An unlimited number of AC can take part in a mission (or raid, or air attack), even more than 1,000 bombers and 700 fighters (like 1944 over Germany).

[HGabor]

Originally Posted by rof120

"Missions flown by 5 VA on May 8, 1945:

142 IL-2 flew 188 missions
116 Yaks flew 180 missions
90 La-5,-7 flew 126 missions
47 Po-2 flew 129 missions
11 (511 ORAP) recce. Pe-2 flew 11 missions (one each)
9 (218 BAD) A-20G Bostons flew 9 missions (one each)"

I guess you mean sorties.

One sortie = one flight performed by one aircraft. 9 sorties = one flight each performed by 9 AC.

An unlimited number of AC can take part in a mission (or raid, or air attack), even more than 1,000 bombers and 700 fighters (like 1944 over Germany).

Correct, sorry.
Gabor

[Kapper]

Gabor,

Are there any losses near Brno (Brunn) on the 7th May 1945?

In all the writings I’ve seen on Hartmann’s last claim, they state that Hartmann made the claim at about 8.30am on the morning of the 8th May and soon after landing, JG52 received the news of the German surrender. Reportedly they destroyed their aircraft, organised columns and moved out from their base at Deutsch-Brod by 2.00pm and encountered a US Army Tank unit on the evening (presumably around 6pm) of the 8th May at Pizek – 120km away. They move a further 25km to Strakonitz an held there before being handed over to the Russians on the 14th May or 24th May or after 8 days in American captivity – depending on source?

However, the events described above, to me are questionable, as the original unconditional surrender document was signed at 2.41am on the morning of 7th May and under the terms:

“The German High Command will at once issue orders to all German military, naval and air authorities and to all forces under German control to cease active operations at 23.01 hours Central European time on 8 May 1945, to remain in all positions occupied at that time and to disarm completely, handing over their weapons and equipment to the local allied commanders or officers designated by Representatives of the Allied Supreme Commands. “

The Germans wanted 48hrs to be able to notify the more remote units time of the cessation of hostilities but Eisenhower would only give 48hrs from the time of the beginning of discussions, believing the Germans were using delaying tactics, thus setting the deadline of 23.01hrs 8th May (midnight British time). The Russians insisted that a second signing to occur in Berlin at the surrender time (23.01 hrs 8 May) but this was not actually signed until the early hours of the 9th May – thus differing VE days. I’m not going to go further into the politics of the surrender but just to highlight the time difference of signing to surrender which is relevant to when units would have been notified.

Anyway, the order “to cease active operations” as part of the unconditional surrender would have been sent out on the morning of the 7th May (“at once issue orders”). Most units would have been notified on the 7th and those units that were notified on the 8th May were typically the units that could not be contacted by signal, thus couriers were sent to deliver the message with the last unit reportedly ceasing combat on the Eastern Front on 13th May.

Though it’s possible that JG52 didn’t receive the order until the 8th May, in my opinion this is unlikely as they were still in communication with higher command - having also received signals for Graf and Hartmann to fly out and surrender to the British – a signal mentioned as being hidden during his captivity.

Also, Gerhard Thyben made his last claim at about 7.54am on 8th May while he was evacuating the Courland Pocket (with his mechanic as passenger) – So Thyben already knew that the war was about to be over – likely getting notified the day before (7th May) – but soon after Hartmann was on an offensive patrol, thus reportedly didn’t know the war was about to be over – this doesn’t add up to me.

Could this be another case of Tolliver/Constables dramatic writing? Fighting to the end - last victory in Europe etc.? Whatever the reasoning, this is the earliest source that I know of, that detailed the case of Hartmann’s last victory and subsequent surrender. It seems this version is what is constantly being retold!

Anyway, I believe this claim occurred on the morning of 7th May, on an offensive patrol prior to getting the surrender instruction and that the date confusion was from the fog of war, thus my question about losses on 7th May.

Regards,

Craig…

[HGabor]

Hi Craig,

Several losses on May 7, 1945 in Czech and Austria, but no Yaks were lost in the morning. On May 7, 1945 IL-2 Sturmoviks attacked the Miroslav and Znojmo (Brno-SW) area in Moravia in multiple waves throughout the day for the loss of several IL-2s:

17 VA, 136 ShAD, 715 ShAP, 2nd Sq., IL-2m3, S/N: 12656, white '25', was downed by flak, crashed in Miroslav. Crew of Ml.Lt. Petr Vasilevich Kravtsev - Nikolai Fedorovich Chertov was KIA. Last fatal combat loss of the 715 ShAP in WWII. Poor guys...

5 VA, 7 GvShAD, 130 GvShAP, IL-2m3, S/N: 12586 crashlanded at their airfield after attacking Miroslav due to flak in the afternoon. Hitarashvili - Lebedin crew OK.

5 VA, 7 GvShAD, 130 GvShAP, IL-2m3, S/N: 18895118 crashlanded at Zaichi(Зайчи?)-NW, 2 km, Hohenau-N,-NW, 30 km in the afternoon after attacking Miroslav. Later repaired, Nazarov-Velitskovich crew OK.

17 VA, 306 ShAD, 672 ShAP attacked the Znojmo area at Brno-SW, one IL-2m3, S/N: 18870106 crashed at Zizendorf(?), Austria en route home. Bershak crew OK.

5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 92 GvShAP, IL-2m3, S/N: 1874799, white '95', crashlanded at Zaichi(Зайчи?) due to flak. Karpitskii-Savchenko crew OK.

IL-2m3 of 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, S/N: 11461 was written-off for wear and tear.

5 VA, 279 IAD, 192 IAP, La-7FN, S/N: 45212545 was lost after escorting 9 IL-2 to Miroslav in the afternoon and crashlanded at base (Htrasshof, Austria) Ml.Lt. Alexandr Gerasimovich Spirin was unhurt.

5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 190 GvShAP IL-2m3, S/N: 18872128 at 14:50 local, crashed at Dürnkrut-W, 5 km in Austria. Gv.Lt. Emelyan Sergeevich Anukhin Sq. commander crew OK.

5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 188 GvShAP, 1st Sq., IL-2m3 Sturmoviks, S/N: 1877086 and 11041 were repaired at base due to combat damages.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 179 IAP, Yak-1B, S/N: 18177 burned on Luzhitse (Лужице) airbase at 21:25 PM local due to maintenance mistake after mission.

We still can check reports on dogfights, but there were no fighter losses for Hartmann, that's for sure.

Overall I am a bit skeptic about the date errors/changes, because if we accept them, then there are no limits. If anything can change, then everything is possible, so then what's the point to investigate any claims at all? That is why I think here we have to stay with the written claims. If they messed them up, too bad, what is written is written. (Same for the soviets...)

Summary: no matter how we twist them, looks like Hartmann's 352nd was just another overclaim - among his many.

Regards,
Gabor

[HGabor]

Hartmann's other late claims...

345: 11.3.1945 - Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
On March 11, 1945 the 17 VA lost 1 Yak-9D, 1 Yak-9M, 1 Yak-3.
5 VA lost 1 Yak-1B. This time Hartmann was stationing at Weidengut with Stab I./JG 52. From there, I think, the distance is too big to the op. area of the 5 & 17 VA, and unfortunately I have no records for others, - never researched.

349: 11.4.1945 - Yak-3 Stab I./JG 52 -
On April 11, 1945 17 VA lost 1 Yak-9M at Muraszombat (Murska Sobota, Slovenia). This time Hartmann was stationing at Raudnitz with Stab I./JG 52. From there, I think, the distance is too big to the op. area of the 5 & 17 VA, and I have no records for others, - never researched.

351: 25.4.1945 - P-39 Stab I./JG 52 -
Neither the 5th, nor the 17th Air Army that I have detailed records for used this model. What I know is that on April 25, 1945 2nd Belarus Front, 329 IAD, 66 IAP lost at least 2 Aerocobras: S/N: 44-3419 at Statgard (SIC!) and 42-18568 at Merkis-Fridland (SIC!). Both planes required new engines and radiators. Repairs were performed by 858 BAO, 13 RAB. This time Hartmann was stationing at Altkemnitz with Stab I./JG 52. I am not familiar with that region, not sure if any of these could match, or their distance was too big. No idea.

Gabor