Hartmann: claims vs. victories

[Franek Grabowski]

Craig
I would like to see evidence that the log books were looted/taken by Americans. It looks to me more like an excuse to avoid discussion on actual deeds. I cannot imagine that none has surfaced out of a number claimed to be stolen.

[HGabor]

Franek, very interesting thoughts... I have not even thought of that.

Some info for March 7, 1945. Hartmann claimed 2 Yak-9s this day as his 242nd and 243rd claims. I do not have further details. I have two Yak-9D losses for this day in Southern-Poland. I am wondering if these losses were in Hartmann's op. area, or they were too far from it and therefore they were lost to somebody else?

4 Ukr. Front, 8 VA, 100 OKRAP, Yak-9D, S/N: 1515363, engine: М-105 пф №4-3191 from Novosibirsk, factory No.153, lost at Ochaby (Drogomyśl-S, 3 km), in Southern-Poland, near the Czech border. Took off at 15:00, local. Pilot, Gv.Ml.Lt. Vasilii Ivanovich Bizyaev (1922-1945) was MIA. His assigned PL-3M parachute number was: ПЛ-3М-109230. Single IL-2(KR?) of 100 OKRAP, escorted by 2 Yak-9D of the same unit was flying recce. mission in the Прухна-Драгомысль area. Leader: Lt. Vladimir Fedorovich Stakanov, wingman: Vasilii Ivanovich Bizyaev. Flight was attacked by pair of Fw 190s, Bizyaev was shot down. (It could be pair of Bf 109s as well around the Czech border.) No further info.

4 Ukr. Front, 8 VA, 100 OKRAP, Yak-9D, S/N: 3015340, engine: М-105 ПФ №435-440 from Novosibirsk, factory No.153, lost at Drogomyśl-S, 2 km in Southern-Poland, near the Czech border. Took off at 14:20, local. Pilot, St.Lt. Valerii Vasilevich Kremeshkov (1921-1945) was MIA. He was the leader of the other Yak-9D pair, escorting another single IL-2(KR?) photo-recce. plane of the 100 OKRAP. The number of his assigned PL-3M type parachute was: ПЛ-3М № 16721. He was also downed by a pair of 'Fw 190s' (which could be Bf 109s as well). No further info.

ЦАМО, фонд 100 ОКРАП, оп. 466940, дело 1, л. 26.
ЦАМО, фонд 100 ОКРАП, оп. 354724, дело 4, л. 39-41.
ЦАМО, фонд 100 ОКРАП, оп. 354722, дело 5, л.79.

(I must emphasize, that I am not familiar with Hartmann's op. areas out of Hungary! These are just guesses, being close to the Czech border.)

Gabor

[Kapper]

Gabor,

From information I got from Johannes, the 2 claims of the 7th March 1945 are in the unit KTB and he has them listed as in the Breslau/Brieg area.

The 2 claims of 6th March are also in the unit KTB and are listed in the R Oppeln-Brieg area - unfortunately not times.

Regards,

Craig...

[Kapper]

Franek,

Good point. Only seen in the Tolliver/Constable book and some quoted Hartmann interviews.

I actually believe the part about the logbook being taken by US GI’s to be true, but I’ve always wondered if it was taken by a typical GI rather than an Officer. American soldiers at that time wouldn’t have known who Hartmann was and in general would be more interested in items of value such as medals and watches etc rather than paperwork. An officer may see more value in it particularly for intelligence but what would be the point at the end of the war – therefore it’s either been dumped/burned or put away in some attic/storage and forgotten about.

As to the missing logbook to be a convenient excuse to avoid discussion on actual deeds – I don’t think so. Hartmann’s first logbook with claims up to number 150, was used by Tolliver/Constable in their book. Apparently, he had left it at home at some point before the end of the war, thus didn’t have it with him when he was captured. This is evident in the book, because the first 150 claims had mission numbers (whcih would only been available in the flugbuch) and the detail of these 150 claims have compared very well against the claims in the claims’ films – which was made public at a much later date after the publishing of the book. There are a few differences between the book and the claims files but not many. With this accuracy they had to have had the logbook. So, why would Hartmann make this available but hold back on his other logbook – not likely in my opinion.

Regards,

Craig..

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

Personally I think a lot of the Tolliver/constable book is not based on fact. I very well remember the "four Mustangs" story, that certainly never happened.

With the KBT papers for 1945, Hartmann is mentioned, but JG52 claims or some season weren't given times, other units, and by memory I think all other units times were given. Other high scoring pilots were mentioned by name, and the claim given a number i.e Hartmann 343.

The Hartmann claims that were not mentioned during 1945 in the KBT papers should not be regarded with any hope of being accurate, in fact most could be weeks or a month wrong in there date, and type could also be incorrect.

With the Hartmann claim 352 I should think that the pilot himself might remember his last being on the last day of the war, and the Toliver/Constable book states that it came down in a square in the centre of Brünn.

I am suspicious of any high scoring pilot that didn't have any unconfirmed. or A.S.M claims, Rall is lacking, but we are not questioning his, Nowotny also lacking. but his are certainly questionable, with Hartmann there were a few early on, then they abruptly stop, I would imagine that earlier on he must have been honest, as with Wilhelm Batz.

All those pilots that claimed ten or more a day in the east seem to be questionable, and the guy thought to be the most accurate in the "200" club has a best day of five(Lipfert). There are certain patterns to "over-claiming", but there can always be exceptions to the rules I guess.

Hartmann's preferred attack method was from above, the Bf109 had pretty bad visibility at best, and not surprisingly "Il-2 experten" seemed more accurate, I would guess they attacked from below where their aircraft had better visibility. Hartmann had one of the lowest Il-2 percentage amongst his claims, perhaps here is another topic, why should he be given the privilege of being safe away from ground-fire, while others seemed to be taking higher risks at low-altitude hacking down these heavily armoured ground-attack aircraft?

Kind Regards

Johannes

[HGabor]

Over Brünn, interestingly the soviet bombers suffered very heavy losses in April, 1945. Especially April 25, 1945 was intense, when they lost 3 Bostons to Hartmann's I./JG 52 fighters. Surprisingly Hartmann claimed a P-39 this day, which was not present in the Brünn area.

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April 19, 1945: 5 VA, 218 BAD, 452 BAP, A-20G-40-DO Boston, S/N: 43-21364, lost to flak over Brünn, crashlanded at Loděnice. Bombardier/navigator bailed out, radioman was MIA, pilot died during landing. Survivor female gunner, Vasilisa Sergeevna Pashenko in fear of torture and rape, commited suicide when the plane was approached by German troops.

April 23, 1945: 5 VA, 218 BAD, 48 BAP, A-20G-15-DO Boston, S/N: 42-54174, lost to flak over Brünn, crashed at Holáskách. Entire crew of Lt. Ivan Pavlovich Beloglazenko was KIA.

April 25, 1945: 5 VA, 218 BAD, 48 BAP, A-20G-15-DO Boston, S/N: 42-54202, red '2' lost to flak over Brünn, crashed IN Brünn! Entire crew of 1Lt. Dmitrii Sergeevich Bongard was KIA.

April 25, 1945: 5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP, A-20G-10-DO Boston, S/N: 42-53953, lost in a dogfight to Bf 109s of I./JG 52 over Brünn, crashed at Heršpice in a hillside forest. Yak-3 escort from 31 GvIAP. Pilot, Capt. Vasilii Kirillovich Jurchenko was KIA.

April 25, 1945: 5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP, A-20G-30-DO Boston, S/N: 43-9781, lost in a dogfight to Bf 109s of I./JG 52 over Brünn, crashed at Ruprechtov. Yak-3 escort from 31 GvIAP. Pilot, Lt. Anatolii Alexeevich Vetrov was KIA. Plane arrived only 5 days earlier, on April 20, 1945 in the 5 VA, 453 BAP from 7 VA, 114 GvDBAP, operating in the Norway region in the North.

April 25, 1945: 5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP, A-20G-15-DO Boston, S/N: 42-54221, lost in a dogfight to Bf 109s of I./JG 52 over Brünn, crashed at Vacenovice, Brünn-SE. Yak-3 escort from 31 GvIAP. Pilot, 1Lt. Mihail Levanovich Kakulia survived the crash.

Any such claims in I./JG 52?????

No soviet fighter losses in this dogfight. (La-7FN, S/N: 45211033 of 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP was lost to flak and crashed at Babice nad Svitavou. Pilot, Ml.Lt. Alexeii Ivanovich Menshikov was KIA.)

Gabor