German Navy Fokker D.VII

[Petrusja]

Thanks Stig.

I would suspect that Alfred's name and the supposed unit name come from the official Dutch dossier which NIMH (associated with the armed forces) would have access to.

I'll try to contact some Dutch people who might be able to help.

Off topic - Fokker could provide no proper drawings to Albatros so they copied the design, and pilots preferred the Albatros-built aircraft. I read somewhere that the OAW version was again not identical.

Peter

[musec04]

Hello Stig,


Engelfried was, as per my post 17 in this thread a real individual who also served with MFJ V and according to Guttman force landed D.55584/18 on 15 Sept 1918.



My take this is incident 1.


Baum force landed on 15 October according again to Guttman P.52. This I believe may be D.5288/18.Not certain of course.



This is incident 2.


Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

Clint/Peter

I just can't believe two D.VII landed on the same date and at the same place in Holland and on top the officials had no idea and classified "two" landings as one.

Neither can I believe no Dutch historian so far has managed to detect this anomaly.

It would be interested to know why Guttman believes so....

Yes please, Peter, check your end because that is where the solution is to be found,... I hope....

Cheers
Stig

[musec04]

Hi Stig/Petrusja,


But my point is the two dates are a month apart. September and October.If Jon Guttman is correct Engelfried and D.5584/18 have no relation to October 15th at all. This is also exactly as stated in the Jasta War Chronolgy all information relates to September 15th.


Therefore the question I ask is have the dutch sources referenced by Petrusja and OTF and Air Enthusiast conflated two seperate incidents.Alternatively, of course the Jasta War chronology and subsequently Jon Guttmann have both got the dates for D.5584/18 incorrect.






I'm not familiar with the periodical writingd you reference Stig, but research is cumulative. Therefore are the most up to date of the various publications are perhaps, most likely to be correct.Also Stig would you be able to supply the names of the authors of the periodical articles you reference.







Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

I see your point Clint

However there is no recording from Dutch sources of any Fokker D.VII force landing in Holland on 15.9.1918
All sources I have list only one landing and that is on 15.10.1918

Since Karl Engelfried is listed in the War Chronology, why is he is strangely absent in the two other sources? No Engelfried in Jasta Pilots and no Engelfried interned in Holland on 15.9.1918. Makes me think that maybe the Chronology has an error and Guttman simply repeats it.

The articles I am quoting from are:
Dutch Military Aircraft 1910-1920 (Early purchase of aircraft and the first aircraft manufacturers in the Kingdom of the Netherlands by Johan G.H. Visser (Over the Front Vol 22 No 1 - Spring 2007)

Interned! A list of aeroplanes of all nationalities that were interned by the Dutch authorities after landing in Holland during 1914-1918 by Harry van Dorssen and Frits Gerdessen (Cross & Cockade Vol 16 No 1)

Unexpected windfalls (Accidentally or deliberately, more than 100 aircraft arrived in Dutch territory during the Great War) by Bart van der Klaauw (Air Enthusiast issu no 80 - April/May 1999)

Cheers
Stig

[musec04]

Hi Stig,


Looking at your sources and particularly the article titles I would have to agree that the 15 September information is wrong and there's also the later shooting down of a balloon by Engelfried on 26 October.


That leaves Baum in D.5584/18 on the 15 October by default.Correct?


Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

Anything seems possible by now Clint

I have now read so many small bits and pieces, that I have by now forgotten where I read this, but at least one source "sounded" like the interned pilot (crews) were sent packing home very quickly, while the Dutch very cleverly kept the aeroplanes....

So it is not entirely impossible that our guy (let's call him Karl Engelfried Alfred Baum ) was sent packing across the border and was back with his unit just a couple of days later.

I don't like this "two-names-one-aircraft" situation. Until that is resolved at least I feel very uneasy....

Cheers
Stig