French fighter scores, mainly 1939-1940

[edwest2]

Then write that book. Correct those mistakes. My father fought for Poland and went to the US after the war. When I was watching a war movie in the 1960s, I asked him if that was what it was like. He said: "No son. It wasn't like that at all."



Best,
Ed

[rof120]

Originally Posted by edwest2

Then write that book. Correct those mistakes. My father fought for Poland and went to the US after the war. When I was watching a war movie in the 1960s, I asked him if that was what it was like. He said: "No son. It wasn't like that at all."
Best,
Ed

Thanks Ed. You're okay. "Write that book"? I'm doing just that all the time even if you're not aware of it. Most of what I posted here and of what I wrote to some French friends (not the same texts) you'll find in that forthcoming book some day (if I live long enough, which in no way is certain so it's better to make sure at TOCH first). Please leave it to me to assess if it's not worth it to inform as large an international audience as possible on a few fundamental facts of the 1940 air war (French Campaign, Battle of Britain). I know most people have absolutely no idea. For example, who is aware at all that the Germans lost more aircraft in 38 days of French Campaign than in 83 days of Battle of Britain (July 10 through September 30)? 1,469 vs 1,428 (figures can vary slightly). All figures were published long ago but it seems that nobody took notice. See, among others, Len Deighton's books "Blitzkrieg" (France and Benelux) and "Fighter" (BoB), in which he published these figures.

I had a very good friend in the USA, about 2 years younger than me. I fear he's dead by now for he never replied for over 2 years. He had served with the US Air Force for a very long time and he was highly interested in the air war 1939-45 including, in particular, 1940. He was really quite knowledgeable on this but after I explained about the same things as here in this thread he wrote to me: "I had no idea (over the air fighting in May-June 1940)". Among other things he figured that after the Dunkerque evacuation (it ended on June 3) it was all over. Actually the French Campaign (totalling 6 weeks and 4 days) went on for over 3 more weeks until June 24 with some of the fiercest air fighting on several occasions like June 3 (German attack of the aero-industry and airfields in the Paris area, a bloody failure), June 5 (Heinz Nowarra wrote some very admiring comments on the French Air Force's combat on this day - by then the French fighters were very strong indeed and even Major Werner Mölders was shot down by a young French "Pilot Officer" (lieutenant), June 8, 9 and 21... I am aware that these facts are almost totally, or totally, unknown to most people in the world including… in France itself.

This is why I am trying to explain how it was in reality, not in the dreams of jingoistic English authors like Stephen Bungay (and many others) in his book "The Most Dangerous Enemy", who wrote that "of course French aircraft designs were not as good" (as German and British designs). This statement is of a rare stupidity and shows that this "historian", who lives close to France, did not bother in the least to ask around himself and learn the facts. Excellent, remarkable French aircraft designs were the following (several ones were produced in hundreds of models): LeO 45 bomber, Breguet 693-695 light assault bomber, Bloch 155, Dewoitine 520-523 and Arsenal VG-33, 36 and 39 fighters, Bloch 174 superlative recce AC, Bloch 175 light bomber and more. The UK had ONE remarkable AC, the Spitfire. Likewise Germany (Me 109 E).

I feel this Bungay-statement alone is enough evidence that I have to correct this nonsense here too (and you know it). Don't worry for I am almost through.

It is obvious that my long explanations (6 TOCH-pages up till now) interest our audience here (look at the number of views to the right of the first post of this thread). To many a reader this was a discovery. British fighter forces in France were feeble on May 10, 1940 and afterwards. Their pilots did their best.(At the time they (about 150 pilots flying those 100 "Hurricanes") claimed 700 victories in 12 days; see book "Twelve Days in May" by Brian Cull, who lowered this figure to 300 IIRC - still not really modest and realistic - in 46 days those 700 claims would have meant 2,800 victory claims for 100 fighters, double the Fighter Command score in 83 days for about 600 fighters). John Foreman came to the same conclusion as myself: the RAF fighter overclaim rate was about 5 but some people including some Frenchmen very loudly claim that RAF fighters downed many more German AC than the 1,000 French fighters. I really wonder how this could have been possible at all.

Well, rest in peace and live another day. I'll write that book, period.

[edwest2]

Please don't use the word jingoistic in your book should you live to write it.

[rof120]

Originally Posted by edwest2

Please don't use the word jingoistic in your book should you live to write it.

Hello Ed. At first I wanted to send you a private message (PM) but I changed my mind for I need an explanation because English is not my mother tongue and many TOCH members or visitors (a vast majority it seems) are in the same situation. I know I'll never have a perfect command of English equal to British or American people's.

So: why should I not use the word "jingoistic" in a book or elsewhere? Is it so serious an insult? I don't believe so. I had a close look at several dictionaries including a purely English one (no German or French translations given). There are jingoists in virtually all countries all over the world, especially in France, Germany, England, the USA and (almost?) all other countries. Often they mention "chauvinist" as an equivalent.

You seem to find this word offensive but why? Obviously it's not a compliment, it is clearly negative. Shall I write a book containing only compliments to everybody? Everybody is nice, clever, friendly, perfect. This is hardly possible for in France only I am acutely aware of a dozen "historians", some of them holding very prestigious titles or posts, who simply are phoneys, publish nonsense, copy long extracts from other people's books without telling so, and often libel, even insult, other authors (mainly because the latter are all too serious, can you follow me?).

In a nutshell: why not "jingoistic"?

[canonne]

There are no words. The communists started to fight Hitler’s Nazi Germany first after Germany had attacked the USSR on June 22, 1941, and they did so because Moscow had given them the order. In France after WW II they screamed everywhere, and they are till doing so, that they are “Le parti des fusillés” – to make it short, the party of the Résistance fighters. Ha ha ha. They fought for Russia [you mean USSR ?] not for France.

Wrong … absolutly wrong. Long time ago French historians studied the fighting of the communists before … far before … June 1941. Long time before the order of Staline. The large differences between “la base” underground communists units … and their (?) political headquarters. Sabotages were also in the opposite side.
Interesting political point of view but not historical one. My uncle was one of them : Front populaire in 1936… FTPF (Cie Chevrin). Bourges area. Black history for red sabotages !
About your “ah ah ah “ …
Awfull to say they fought for Ussr than for France. Again “un Historien ( ?) qui a obtenu son diplôme dans un paquet de Bonux”?
Please do not insult these guys. I was with he only one survivor in last August commemoration. With French authorities (administrative and militaries). SO what ? Poutine was not there ! Do not be upset of that !!!
He and his comrads saved First Lieut Albert Debacker (355th FG) in August 1944 !
Marmage (Cher) on 22 August 1944 : they were 7 to attack a German train : 5 were killed. For Staline ? ….. Do not insult them please. First time I ask to the moderator of a website to do something.
I teach History and Geography. Never a pupils of mine could say such fake news. Never

“ah ah ah” is not an historical method Monsieur !

Philippe Canonne.