Photo Potez 540/542

[musec04]

Hello,


Currently on ebay there is a photo of a member of the Potez 540 family. Can anyone provide the complete registration for the aircraft shown. I take it that this incident is pre-war, though having said that the seller's items tonight appear to be from the fall of France. The photo is at :


https://www.ebay.de/itm/Q133-Foto-We...0AAOSwqG1eaIsu



Poor sense of humour, I know but given the damage they don't make bikes like they used to, as the aircraft is captioned as suffering bicycle damage or perhaps my German is inadequate.


Regards,


Clint

[Tom Willis]

Hi Clint
As far as I can make out by looking at the reg on the fuselage and under the exposed wing as F-AKHO. I did also look at F-ARHO but this sequence of ARH? appears to be not used.
I cannot help with the time-line of the accident as being pre-war but with the rest of this cluster of photos appears to be from one source so I would go for this photo is also the same time as the rest and puts it firmly just after the French collapse in June 1940. Along with many small liaison/transport aircraft that were impressed there would be some larger transport multi-engine types also.

[musec04]

Hello Tom,


Les avions Potez by Jean-Louis Coroller and Michel Ledet P.284 states some Potez 540 were converted to VIP Transport or special transport (whatever that means) and given a civil registration. I guess the F-AKHO (that's how I read it too) was one of those. Strange that none of the usual online sources for french civil registrations list the machine.


Regards,


Clint

[musec04]

Hello Again,


Got it. In Henri Lacaze and Claude LHerbet Morane Saulnier ses Avions,ses Projets P.243 there is a photo of F-AKHO along with among others Loire 46 F-AKHP and Stinson SR-5A Reliant F-AKHB at the CEMA. So perhaps F-AKH* codes were specific to CEMA?


Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

Clint/Tom

The whole F-AKxx range seems to have been something outside the control of the regular French civil authorities. Most of the known registrations applied were for prototypes and thus assigned to the Industry, but a few aircraft used by either the Government or Ministry of Air were also included. Sadly those records were lost during the war.

Basically the only way of finding anything new is to locate logbooks, photographs etc. From what I can see the F-AKAx to F-AKGx ranges were only used for prototypes. By 1935/36 when the range F-AKHx began to be used we see the first non-prototypes appear and they then also appear in the ledgers with a full CofR.

The photo on e-bay shows an aircraft so far unknown in any lists I have seen making the photo on page 243 in the Morane book, as mentioned by Clint, rather unique. Quite interesting the author makes no comment about that, except saying its a rare photo of the MS 407. It is a rare photo of everything. The Stinson seen was registered to Etat Francais.

It also seems the range ended in 1938 (possibly 1939) with the F-AKIx range.

With regard to our Potez it is an aircraft taken from a military batch. Since the 540s used by the "Escadrille Ministérielle" all seems to have been registered in the general register, perhaps this is an aircraft bailed back to Potez for for some unknown tests or used by some other agency. I find it hard to understand why CEMA (or does it have another meaning as well?) would have anything to do with any aircraft at all as listed in the text.

Cheers
Stig

[musec04]

Hi Stig,



Centre d'Essais du Material Aerien seems to fit.I see no reason why the machines listed wouldn't be based there. I'm thinking you possibly had something else in mind?



Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

Aha

Well in my books, CEMA is the French commander in chief of all armed forces...

Cheers
Stig

[Bertrand H]

for your knowledges :

CEMA (at Villacoublay) from 1936 moved in autum 1939 to Orléans-Bricy

Attachment 19053

Attachment 19054

Bertrand

[musec04]

Hello Bertrand,


Interesting documentation you provide.


I'm struggling to decipher the fourth aircraft listed. Clearly some Beachereau design, but too early for the E-60. How do you interpret what is written. Which type of Beachereau design?


Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

Clint

CEMA gained the Kellner-Béchereau E-5 in Feb 1939 (which would fit the "date" listed, ie second quarter of 1939)
However it was sent to CNRA early in April 1939 where it was again tested.

I agree it feels unlikely to have been the E-60

Cheers
Stig