Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor

[Many Souffan]

Hello Lynn.

Firstly, I would like to tell you that I enjoyed your book. I think I was one of the first to buy it the last year at Telford, I was there at the stand of TMA ( Airmagazine, Ciel de guerre, Hsairmag & Les Ailes françaises. )

At the end of my reading of your book I learnt many things, but it was for me like not enough thing, maybe too synthetic. At last I must say BRAVO ! for your work


Just a couple of corrections to Many's helpful post:
Thank you

- There was never a "Bf 109B-2"... no period documentation refers to any variant except the B-1.

As historian, you are, Please never say: There was never a "Bf 109B-2, till today maybe there was never a “Bf 109B-2”, but if you wait 2 or 3 years more, I am going to publish first a special issue about the Slovak 109, and after I will publish a special issue about all 109 used by Germans in Spain and maybe, You will be very surprised. For the others they will the proof that the 6.5 was the first mount of Lützow

- The wooden props were produced by Schwarz (sp?), and were used because the variable pitch props were not ready in time. Photos of Polenz' captured 6-15 show that the instrument panel was set up to have the pitch change mechanism, but it was of course not fitted as the aircraft still carried the wooden prop when captured.

This wooden prop produced by Schwarz was in fact at the beginning an English licence (De Havilland). Don’t forget The wooden two blades Watts on the first Spitfire and the first Hurricane. It was the same period

- The first batch of aircraft to arrive were Bf 109As... they *may* have been coded as high as 6-18, there is still some confusion on the 6-17 and 6-18. (If we could find delivery confirmations in Spanish archives, that would be fantastic...)

Forgetting the question of the type A or B, The first Batch go to 6-1 to 6-16 That all.For me there is no confusion the first of the second batch was 6.17. You have many different photos of the 6.17 with the evident German Camo 70/71, for myself I have 3 but I don’t have any photo of 6.18 and I will be the first surprised to see one, But I believe in tomorrow, and I hope to see one day a photo of this 6.18.

- Presuming 6-17 and 6-18 were A models, there were 26 B-1s delivered to Spain, coded 6-19 through 6-45; five C's, from 6-46 to 6-50; and 35 D-1s, coded 6-51 through 6-86.
My dear Lynn you follow the excellent work of my close friend Patrick Laureau, but even it is a very, very good work, I am not sure it is the truth.

For example in the special issue n° 5 Avions: les Messerschmitt espagnols of the famous historian Juan Arraez Cerda, you see Page 16 & 17 some photographs of 6.60 of Schob ( and I have seen the originals this 109 is for me a “ C “. The well known foto of the plane of Walter Oesau is for most people a B but there is another photo where you see in close up the cowling of the same plane and it is evident in this foto we are in front of a “D”. So the way is long, long to understand where is the truth... It is the charm of reseaches...

Thank you

[George Hopp]

As historian, you are, Please never say: There was never a "Bf 109B-2, till today maybe there was never a “Bf 109B-2”, but if you wait 2 or 3 years more, ....

Well, actually the comment concerns the Mtt documentation on the 109B. And, I can confirm that no Mtt documentation that I have seen has mentioned anything but the Bf 109B. This includes the manual that mentions both the Schwarz and VDM propeller versions.

[olefebvre]

Having a quick look at my notes Bertas serials ran in the high 50s up to 6o56 for sure, from then on there was a mixture of both C and D. And frankly from my studies i doubt they the C and D were given separate serial blocks.

As far as the B-2 or B-1 goes i haven't seen B-2 being mentionned on official papers so far. Maybe it was used at the unit level by the mechanics to distinguish between the two variants, but neither the RLM nor Mtt seem to have used such a terminology.

[Hohentwiel]

I guess I'll get no more satisfying reply to my questions.

Thanks to all.

[lritger]

Many, thanks for your kind words, and I appreciate you sharing your information... you are of course right, "never" is a strong word when dealing with such a topic as the 109. I had heard that the Schwarz props might have been license produced, but was not certain... your info seems to confirm this, so thanks for that. As regards the C models, yes, I based that on not just Laureau's info, but that of Mombeek as well- truly, the only way to identify a C model in photos is if the cowling is off, so unless a delivery record, further photos, or a logbook showing C model codes is found, it seems we only have educated opinions to go on. The whole affair with the early 109s in Spain is quite maddening to me, as there is so much uncertainty surrounding so few aircraft... the one thing of which I am absolutely certain is that my work is not the last word on the topic! I wanted to at least present a fresh look at these aircraft based on photos and what I considered reliable sources... if it helps foster further research and we uncover the "real" story, I will be very glad indeed.

Thanks again-

Lynn

[Stig Jarlevik]

Gentlemen

Early 109's are tricky to say the least!!
However if we keep in mind that in Spain the He 51 were decidedly outperformed with the Legion Condor, I am pretty convinced that for political reasons the Bf 109 were rushed over as soon as they could be built. If Willy could be stood on "trial" here, I also would be pretty certain that he would have NO idea what was an A model or B model, unless he could produce some documentation out of his back pocket. The early A models were not 100% the same, but included slight modifications as they were produced. Not even the exact same engine type was used (if Radinger/Schick are to be belived). According to both these gentlemen most of the A's were sent to Spain including its prototype WNr 760, the V3. That means we have a possible 17 A-airframes going to Spain.
I for one believe this is basically correct. Possibly the whole first batch, besides prototypes were A-models. Spain took basically a large number of what the Germans could produce at this stage. Has anyone ever sent prototypes of its future main fighter into a war conflict before? Politically it seems one was more or less possessed with winning the conflict....

By the way, can anyone produce a correct list to Patrick Laureau's 109 pages in his book Legion Condor? The first line, in the table on page 95 being out of line, makes his whole listing suspect. Anyone??

Cheers
Stig

[Many Souffan]

AMEN ! ! !

Thank you for me too.

I hope to meet you at Telford this year.