I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

[Marius]

What is long after and why your statements are so definite?

On the 5th Sept.:
3./KG 2 shot down Okrzeja at appr. 13.30 hours at Wyszkow. You surely know where his graveyard is (Kregi Stare at Wyszkow).
IV./LG 1 flew a sortie between 12.31-14.10 with escort of I./ZG 1. Kpt.Opulski`s account agrees completely with German records and with the document of Pursuit Brigade. Therefore I accept it as the best of all memories written by Polish pilots about this particular mission. It doesn`t matter that it was published in older Pawlak`s book.
According to IPMS, Lot.AII.11/1d-11 the III dyon had one engagement with the enemy. The document does not differe both engagements, but surely means that only one unit - the 112th eskadra - fought against the enemy (as described in the document).
There is nothing about the 111 eskadra. Sorry for that.

Could you explain the difference between older source (Pawlak 1991) and newer (Cynk 2000)? The latter states that the sections were Okrzeja, Łokuciewski, Nowakowski and Łapkowski, Górecki, Gallus? How about statement of Łaszkiewicz, who noted Okrzeja was hit by own A.A.?

I could write many pages about mistakes and manipulations done by Mr. Cynk. But the fact that in his ignorance he decided to disregard German records completely as some Polish publishers tried to build up an outstanding work (for the first time ever) shows us the way this autor works. The only useful things in his book "Polskie lotnictwo mysliwskie..." are the original Polish documents.

A hit by own A.A. is not a collision, right?

There are also other statements and documents, which should not be disregarded.

Please quote these documents. I hope you will find them.

This is just ridiculous - there are Polish documents that clearly state it was 111 Eskadra which fought against Ju 87s at the very same time.

Please quote these documents. I hope you will find them also.

I cannot find this particular report, but as noted above, corrections were added to several documents and this could be the case.

IPMS, Lot.AII.15/1b-11. You better should find it and not just ignore it.

Who is the many?

For sure Skalski and Rolski. But that`s not the point. At the end you will find Do 17`s, Ju 87`s, Me 109`s and Me 110`s. Maybe you will even find some Me 262`s.

Do I have to repeat ad nauseam that Pniak in his report dated 4.09.1939 clearly states that he fought against twin engined aircraft

Pniak repoprted "two engined aircraft" from a distance of appr. 2 000 meters and before he ever started! He then fought against these aircraft and was credited with a ... Ju 87! So he claimed a two engined Ju 87.
Nonetheless I never heard about sections of 3 attacking Bf 110`s. These only could be sections of Ju 87`s.

No German record is stating about fightings between I./ZG 1 and Polish fighters on this day. Even Prof.Trenel who had masses of German documents during the war wrote about 3 PZL shot down and 2 forced to land. This agrees with survived German records. 3 PZL claims by 1.(J)/LG 2 and 2 force landings claimed by III./StG 2.

One correction for your archive:
Earlier combat 8. and 9./StG 2, later combat 7./StG 2 and I.(J)/LG 2.

Finally, it was you, who excluded possibility of joint Me 109/Me 110 escort, which leads to the clear conclusion.

Joint formations of Me 109/Me 110 did not fly any single mission for one bomber formation (strenght 9 - 30 aircraft) in Poland 1939. I am very sorry that you do not know that.

Marius

[Evgeny Velichko]

Hi all, many thanks for help!

Another claims over Holland...

10 May 1940 I/ZG 1 intercepted six Blenheim IVs of RAF 600 Squadron over Walhaven airfield, five were shot down with only one escaping. Falck describes his experiences as he tries to bag the one that escaped.

One of Blenheims was shot down by Oblt. Werner Streib... But all other?

To 11 May 1940 Wolfgang Schenck claimed in Holland his first two air victories, but 16.05.1940 in the aerial combat with Hurricane he was heavily wounded.

Any more?

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Marius

On the 5th Sept.:
3./KG 2 shot down Okrzeja at appr. 13.30 hours at Wyszkow. You surely know where his graveyard is (Kregi Stare at Wyszkow).
IV./LG 1 flew a sortie between 12.31-14.10 with escort of I./ZG 1. Kpt.Opulski`s account agrees completely with German records and with the document of Pursuit Brigade. Therefore I accept it as the best of all memories written by Polish pilots about this particular mission. It doesn`t matter that it was published in older Pawlak`s book.
According to IPMS, Lot.AII.11/1d-11 the III dyon had one engagement with the enemy. The document does not differe both engagements, but surely means that only one unit - the 112th eskadra - fought against the enemy (as described in the document).
There is nothing about the 111 eskadra. Sorry for that.

You reffer only to the published documents and you do not even know when they were filed. Sorry, how can you make a source's critique? Not to mention that Mr Cynk included only a fraction of available documents, simply of practical reasons.

I could write many pages about mistakes and manipulations done by Mr. Cynk. But the fact that in his ignorance he decided to disregard German records completely as some Polish publishers tried to build up an outstanding work (for the first time ever) shows us the way this autor works. The only useful things in his book "Polskie lotnictwo mysliwskie..." are the original Polish documents.

Here you go into a personal attack on Mr Cynk, who cannot defend himself here. As yet nobody has proven him any manipulations, quite contrary to your writing. To be fair, you should add that it was you, who had to write the German part for his book. It is quite a difference if you write that Mr Cynk refused to include German data and if he refused to cooperate with you. The book of Mr Cynk is excellent and very ballanced Polish view of Polish fighter aviation in the Polish Campaign. Nothing less, nothing more.

A hit by own A.A. is not a collision, right?

How about a hit by A.A. resulting in collision?

Please quote these documents. I hope you will find them.
Please quote these documents. I hope you will find them also.

Everything at a proper time. At the moment I am working on another subject and I canot retract from it. Nonetheless I may assure you I will return to this particular subject as well.

IPMS, Lot.AII.15/1b-11. You better should find it and not just ignore it.

I think you ignore importance of the document, I just cannot find original copy. It is original document filed on 4.09.1939. The question is, when the note about Me 110s was added. As you noted other documents do not mention Me 110s, so it is possible it was a comment added in November 1939. Possibly even earlier, as Rolski certainly could learn about Me 110, even from pilots of Brygada Pościgowa.

For sure Skalski and Rolski. But that`s not the point. At the end you will find Do 17`s, Ju 87`s, Me 109`s and Me 110`s. Maybe you will even find some Me 262`s.

Sarcasm that missed the point. It is hard to consider two being many, and it is surprising you are so easily giving faith to accounts written years later!

Pniak repoprted "two engined aircraft" from a distance of appr. 2 000 meters and before he ever started! He then fought against these aircraft and was credited with a ... Ju 87! So he claimed a two engined Ju 87.

By whom, when and where? As far as I can decipher, original entry in the diary of the unit did mention credit for Do 17 that was later corrected (by Rolski?) to Ju 87, and the combat report filed just after the combat clearly mention two engined aircraft. I do not care, they might have been He 111s, but I am certain they were not Ju 87s.

Nonetheless I never heard about sections of 3 attacking Bf 110`s. These only could be sections of Ju 87`s.

I believe you have not heard of sections of three of Me 109s, so what?

No German record is stating about fightings between I./ZG 1 and Polish fighters on this day. Even Prof.Trenel who had masses of German documents during the war wrote about 3 PZL shot down and 2 forced to land. This agrees with survived German records. 3 PZL claims by 1.(J)/LG 2 and 2 force landings claimed by III./StG 2.

Was not the study of Trenel written post-war for USAAF intelligence? Anyway, it is a very simple story of the Polish Campaign, and it cannot be considered definite. I know, I have read it.

Joint formations of Me 109/Me 110 did not fly any single mission for one bomber formation (strenght 9 - 30 aircraft) in Poland 1939. I am very sorry that you do not know that.

If so, the second formation must have been escorted by Me 110 and this exclude participation of LG2's Me 109s - see original Pniak report.

[Marius]

Here you go into a personal attack on Mr Cynk, who cannot defend himself here.

No, I wrote something about the book and the way the autor works. In fact its me who can not defend against personal attacks Mr. Cynk made in Polish paper Lotnictwo Wojskowe 5/2005. His article is full of lies and manipulations about my person. Such behaviour among airwar historians is scandalous. I never did such things against any autor.

It is quite a difference if you write that Mr Cynk refused to include German data and if he refused to cooperate with you.

Nobody spoke about a "direct cooperation". It was the "problem" of Polish publishers only to bring the data together. Mr. Cynk disregarded German records completely (sorry, almost completely - he brought in his own interpretation (sic!!) of GQM records). Without German records the book is almost worthless. This is not only my opinion, but of many Polish historians of the "younger generation".
Why? I showed one example above describing 5th Sept. and the mission flown by 112 eskadra. Next example: according to Cynk German records are confirming (?!) the loss of a He 111 of I./KG 152 shot down by 123 eskadra over Warsaw on the 5th. In fact this bomber was shot down 100 km`s away from Warsaw by Polish AA. Another example: 6 He 111`s of II./LG 1 shot down by Polish fighters in the morning of 1th Sept. Pretendendly confirmed by German documents (sic!?). But in fact such documents do not exist. The existing documents are confirming the loss of 1 He 111 + 1 He 111 belly landed (sic!). As well in GQM records, known to Mr. Cynk (sic!).

By whom, when and where? As far as I can decipher, original entry in the diary of the unit did mention credit for Do 17 that was later corrected (by Rolski?) to Ju 87

2 engined aircraft at a height of appr. 2000 m. Pniak saw 7 airplanes from the ground, before he started. After he started there appears nothing more about 2 engined aircraft. But 3 (!!) aircraft "of the same type" attacked him. IPMS, Lot.AII.15/1c-15 (also Cynk "Polskie lotnictwo mysliwskie..., page 242).
From the beginning of the war German Bf 109`s and Bf 110`s flew in sections of 2 (Rotte). This is not a secret. You can find this information in my book Jagdflieger (appendixes, experiences of German units).
As I wrote earlier Polish combat reports are useless regarding particular German aircraft types. German records are not confirming what you would like to have.

and the combat report filed just after the combat clearly mention two engined aircraft.

Only Pniak`s combat report, right?

If so, the second formation must have been escorted by Me 110 and this exclude participation of LG2's Me 109s - see original Pniak report.

It`s only your stubbornness. Even in original Polish documents you will find 3 P.11 only which participated in the earlier combat against Ju 87`s. Por. Pisarek had then to forceland his badly damaged aircraft and exactly this is described in the records of III./StG 2. In the latter combat 13 PZL took part and it is logical that I./LG 2 only then could have claimed 3 of them.

Everything at a proper time. At the moment I am working on another subject and I canot retract from it. Nonetheless I may assure you I will return to this particular subject as well.

I don`t believe it. You often are referring to Polish documents which in fact do not exist. So I repeat my request: please show me the document confirming the fight of 111 eskadra in the midday of 5th Sept.

Cheers.
Marius

[Peter Cornwell]

Robert,

This is what I have at present:

600 Squadron, Manston Attack on Waalhaven airfield:

Blenheim IF L1335. Shot down by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. S/L J. M. Wells, Cpl B. A. Kidd killed. Sgt. Davis captured. Aircraft BQ*R lost.

Blenheim IF L1401. Shot down by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. P/O R. W. H. Echlin killed. F/O J. H. C. Rowe captured. Aircraft BQ*K lost.

Blenheim IF L1514. Shot down by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. F/O C. R Moore, Cpl. L. D. Isaacs killed. Aircraft BQ*W lost.

Blenheim IF L1515. Shot down by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. P/O M. H. Anderson, LAC H. C. W. Hawkins killed. Aircraft BQ*L lost.

Blenheim IF. Crashlanded in Holland damaged by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. P/O R. C. Haine, P/O M. Kramer unhurt. Aircraft BQ*N lost.
These aircraft were all fitted with IFF, and the prospect of the device falling into enemy hands caused much concern at HQ Fighter Command.

Blenheim IF. Returned damaged by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. F/O T. N. Hayes, Cpl. G. H. Holmes unhurt. Aircraft BQ*O damaged.

604 Squadron, Northolt Escort for No.110 Sqdn to Waalhaven:

Blenheim IF L1517. Forced-landed on beach at Scheveningen 5.30 p.m.

If anyone can add anything to this I would be grateful.