looking for info on HE-111 losses over Holland, 10th may 1940

[Jaap Woortman]

Originally Posted by Peter Cornwell

5./KG4 Heinkel He111P. Shot down by Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 (1e Lt Kuipers & Sgt Venema) and crashlanded at Alblasserdam, near Waalhaven 4.15 a.m. Uffz H. Zitzmann captured badly wounded, treated at Missiehaus Paters van Nuland. Uffz G. Klenk, Uffz W. Wiebke, and Gefr R. Schlegel captured unhurt. Aircraft 5J+JN a write-off.

I don't think that the 5J+JN has made a crashlanding near Alblasserdam. In the information itself it is said that Uffz H.Zitzmann has been treated at the Missiehouse of the Paters van Nuland. Nuland is about 120 km from Alblasserdam. The correct crashplace is Rosmalen. Rosmalen is close to Nuland.

I also have a question. After the first attack of the planes of KG 4, strengthened with KGr 126, at the airfields in the Netherlands, I./KG 4 was used for bringing supplies to the airborne troops. See also Gundelachs book about KG 4 at page 71. II./KG 4 and III./KG 4 were operating in support of the 18 Army. The 9.Panzer-Division, as part of the 26th Army Corps, which belongs to the 18th Army, had the goal to go as fast as possible to the Moerdijkbridge. To make contact with the airborne troops.
Therefore they have to pass the Peel-Raam defence-line in East Brabant. Does someone know if the planes of II. and III./KG 4 have made attacks at this defence-line at places like Mill and later St.Oedenrode and Best.
According to the official Dutch Militairy History Stuka's have attacked the defence-line at Mill.
Looking forward for your answers,

Jaap Woortman
Secretary Dutch Study Group Airwar 1939-1945

[rob van den nieuwendijk]

Hello Peter and Jaap,

The NVM states that
Pilot Uffz Gotthold Klenk
BS Gefr Rudolf Schlegel
BF Uffz Hans Zitzmann
BM Uffz Willi Wiebke

"Flugzeug b. Waalhaven notgelandet." Lazarett Zitzmann unkown. Klenk, Schlegel and Wiebke returned from Dutch POW on 16 May 40. Klenk KIA 14.01.45, Schlegel MIA 17.09.43.

Regards,
Rob

[rob van den nieuwendijk]

Forgot some details -

There was a Nachtrag in the NVM -
Uffz Zitzmann "abgegeben an Lazarett Krankenhaus Hertogenbosch Holland, Feldpost nr 27142" Later the entry from Krankenhaus till Feldpostnr was changed in "Dienststelle Feldpostnr 18985.

Interesting to note that Klenk had also been shot down over Poland and had returned from Polish POW on 3 Oct 39.

Regards
Rob

[Marius]

The Heinkel of Klenk was not shot down (1.9.1939 over Poland). Observer Hölscher meant it was maybe (!!) a splinter from Polish AA. The damage itself was not registered. Fact is that many He 111`s had engine problems then (serious difficulties with Daimler Benz DB 601).

Marius

[Peter Cornwell]

Originally Posted by Jaap Woortman

I don't think that the 5J+JN has made a crashlanding near Alblasserdam. In the information itself it is said that Uffz H.Zitzmann has been treated at the Missiehouse of the Paters van Nuland. Nuland is about 120 km from Alblasserdam. The correct crashplace is Rosmalen. Rosmalen is close to Nuland.

Jaap Woortman
Secretary Dutch Study Group Airwar 1939-1945

Thank you Jaap. While I am happy to accept that the 5J+JN may have come down at Rosmalen and not Alblasserdam, can I ask is there any evidence beyond the proximity of the hospital at Nuland to support this claim ?

The crash site of the aircraft is shown as Alblasserdam in the Weisz manuscript and also Bulletin Air War No.247 (T114) produced by your own Study Group. This source also shows a He111 down at Rosmalen on that day but it remained unidentified (T128A).

Any clarification appreciated.

[Jaap Woortman]

Originally Posted by Peter Cornwell

The crash site of the aircraft is shown as Alblasserdam in the Weisz manuscript and also Bulletin Air War No.247 (T114) produced by your own Study Group. This source also shows a He111 down at Rosmalen on that day but it remained unidentified (T128A).

Any clarification appreciated.

The inventarisation project of all aircraft lost over the Netherlands during WWII of the Study Group Airwar 1939-1945, published every month in our Bulletin Air War, is an ongoing project for 6 years now. Every time new evidence is found the list is updated. Therfore I am very happy with this discussion. A picture of the He 5J+JN is published in Onderdrukking en Verzet. Nederland in oorlogstijd. Amsterdam. Deel 1, page 167. See appendix. Photo caption in translation:"German airplane at May 10th shotdown near Den Bosch" Photo R.C. Photo agency "The South". I will check if the book of Hermens about Rosmalen during WWII also has information about this subject.
This information has also been send to the coordinator of our inventarisation project.

Jaap

[Hans Nauta]

Dear Peter,

I doubt wether 5J+ST was detailed to Bergen as this airfield was attacked by 7./KG4.

Regards,
Hans Nauta

[Peter Cornwell]

Jaap, Rob, Hans,

Thanks for your input. It is clear that Rosmalen and not Alblasserdam is the correct location & makes excellent sense of all the information. I have amended the entry as follows:

5./KG4 Heinkel He111P. Shot down by Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 (1e Lt Kuipers & Sgt Venema) and belly-landed at Rosmalen, north of 's-Hertogenbosch, 4.15 a.m. Uffz H. Zitzmann captured badly wounded, treated at Missiehaus Paters van Nuland. Uffz G. Klenk, Uffz W. Wiebke, and Gefr R. Schlegel captured unhurt. Aircraft 5J+JN a write-off.

Jaap, I understand very well indeed that research is an iterative process so keep up the good work - all of you.