Luftwaffe Captured NAA-64 Serial Numbers?

[harrison987]

Hey guys...

I am curious if there is a database somewhere that shows information on NAA-64 aircraft?

I am trying to research a specific loss history...but...given that these were originally for France...and then captured by the Luftwaffe...and mainly used in training schools...I assume loss info would be almost impossible to find.

I have "some" basic info on the Stkz...but no way to determine serial numbers based on that. I have also found a list of serials...but...that list contains only NAA-64 aircraft that survived, and were flown/owned privately post-war.

Does a full list even exist?

TIA

Mike

[Tom Willis]

The Germans captured both NAA 57 & NAA 64. However, there was no correlation between the Stkz & construction/serial numbers. Do you only need info on NAA 64s

[Matti Salonen]

Mike, what specific loss you are looking for?

Matti

[Nick Beale]

They don't give any serial number or Stammkennzeichen but I have two deciphered signals on the transfer of a Harvard to Germany from France in July 1944:

CX/MSS/R257(C),69

From GEKEM ((Jagdkorps)) II, POFOP ((IA Ops.)) No. 3029, dated 25/7:
Transfer of a captured a/c.

1) American a/c, type Harvard IIB will be flown over to Oranienburg from Rosières on 9/8 by Stabsingenieur Beseler with the consent of OKL.

2) a) Route Rosières – Venlo – Münster, where an immediate landing will be made – Oranienburg.

b) Up at first light 9/8.

c) Flying height 200 metres.

d) Marking: bright yellow strips and German national badge.
3) If a change in the time of take-off and route becomes necessary through enemy action or the weather, formations will be informed with a reference to this order.

4) Inform subordinate units.

CX/MSS/T258/23

Signed JG 3 on 26/7:

Subject: ferrying of a captured a/c.

1) An American captured a/c, type Harvard (Roman) IIB, will be ferried with the authorisation of OKL from Rosières to Oranienburg on 9/8 by Stabs Ing. Weseler.

2) a) Flying route: Rosières – Venlo – Münster (intermediate landing there) – Oranienburg.

b) Take off: at dawn on 9/8.

c) Flying height: 200 metres.

d) Marking: (word illegible) yellow paint and nationality markings.

3) In case the enemy or weather situation makes deviations form the intended take-off time and flying route necessary, units who received this order will be informed.

4) Inform subordinate units.

NOTES: Compare R23(B),12 for information being sent to Oranienburg on 3/12 about a captured Lightning.

[Graham Boak]

The NAA 64s had been in German hands and widespread use for over four years, so it isn't clear why a flight of one of these would require special clearance. Is it that they had been retained in flying schools in France so a flight of one of these in German airspace would be something special?

That it is specifically referred to as a Harvard, and precisely as a Mk.IIB (Canadian built) at that, also seems odd. Could it actually be a captured example - or is that too odd, given the date? Or perhaps did the Luftwaffe actually refer to all their NAA trainer types as Harvards?

[Tom Willis]

Thanks Nick a very interesting intercept
The end location of Oranienburg and reference to a captured Lightning to me clearly indicates 2./Vers.Verb.Ob.d.Lw. All known records indicate that this unit always referred to a Harvard and no other name was used. In their book on this Unit Smith & Creek say that it was in November 1944 that a captured example was acquired (confusingly they use a photo of a NAA64 - DR+XD - which was an ex-French example from mid 1940) Clearly this new information puts the time-line a few months earlier. I do not have any specific data on the use of the Harvard by the Allies after D Day but 6 weeks had passed so could one example used by a Transport/Reconnaisance/General Staff Unit have gone astray and landed in German held territory, hence the URGENT transfer radio traffic from France to Germany. Any further info available would be most grateful - Thanks

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Graham Boak

The NAA 64s had been in German hands and widespread use for over four years, so it isn't clear why a flight of one of these would require special clearance.

My guess is because in July 1944 France was full of German Flak gunners who were condtioned to fire at anything unusual. So I interpret this as a wise flight safety precaution in a tense situation.

[harrison987]

Hey guys...

It is NAA-64 Serial 64-2036. Some remains were found near the eastern front...

Mike

[Tom Willis]

Can you give me anymore information about where - when and what was found?
As far as I know the French Armee de i'Air order for 200 aircraft started from the Serial Number 64-2033. Your SN would make this the 4th aircraft within the order. If (as in the usual case) they would follow on from the French Serial numbers. This case being the 4th aircraft was later captured by the Germans from mid 1940

[Laurent Rizzotti]

From the losses available to me for schools in France, the serials used by Lufwaffe for captured aircraft, both French and Italian, are the ones existing before capture (for example, D 520 n° 578 became D 520 WNr 578 and Ca148 MM61151 became WNr 61151).

A quick check of the articles about Luftwaffe flying schools losses in France from January to March 1944 found the following NAA losses:
02 Jan 1944: NAA 57 WNr 132
06 Jan 1944; NAA 57 WNr 137
08 Jan 1944: NAA 57 WNr 80
15 Jan 1944: NAA 57 WNr 29
29 Jan 1944: NAA 64 WNr 46
05 Feb 1944: NAA 57 WNr 195
10 Feb 1944: NAA 57 WNr 31, 44, 61, 67, 141
23 Mar 1944: NAA 57 WNr 157

Comparison with the accident lis of French airforce in 1939-1940
29 Oct 1939: NAA 57P2 N°70
03 Nov 1939: NAA 57P2 N°04
14 Jan 1940: NAA 57P2 N°06
25 Jan 1940: NAA 57P2 N°16 & N°18
26 Feb 1940: NAA 57P2 N°9
07 Mar 1940: NAA 57P2 N°32
08 Mar 1940: NAA 57P2 N°07
09 Mar 1940: NAA 57P2 N°26 & N°43
02 Apr 1940: NAA 57P2 N°134
03 Apr 1940: NAA 57P2 N°180
06 Apr 1940: NAA 57P2 N°100
And so on

So maybe you can search the relation between the US serial or construcor number and the French serial. It might be in US or French documents. Then the Luftwaffe WNr will be equal to the French number.