Stepan Ivanovich Kretov - Il-4 ace

Thank you for the detailed reply Gabor. I accept that the records you check are generally verified by details from research. And I accept that the process is very time consuming and tedious.
I was actually thinking on a more global scale. More what the records possibly DON'T say rather than what they do.
I go back to my comment about reconciling losses. Has anyone tried to calculate total losses for the conflict and then check that all the available loss records add up to that same number? Again, I say if they don't add up, then there is a problem.
Marcus

[HGabor]

"In WWII, it seems to me that for all air forces, accidental losses were bigger than combat losses."

Yeah, a large part of the losses was not combat related at all. It would be wrong to simplify the numbers to distribute all lost planes among Axis claims in order to 'verify' them. No! Tons of claims were overclaims and/or fraud, even if the number changes occurred on the very same day. Just because the other side, let's say, lost 6 planes on a day it does not mean that this can confirm six claims on 'this' side. This still can be 6 overclaims because the other side could have eg. 6 landing accidents. (This is just a theoretical scenario.)

On 25 December 1944 the 17 VA, for instance, removed no less than 14 old Yak-1B fighters from combat service due to wear and tear. This day pilots of II./JG 52 battled Yak-1Bs of the 17 VA indeed, but it does not mean that they shot down 14 Yak-1Bs at all. In fact this was the ground crews' choice. This time reserve units of the 17 VA were already full of brand new Yak-3 fighters freshly delivered from the Tbilisi and the Saratov factories. So they did not want to waste their resources to patch up the old junk and perhaps combat damaged Yak-1Bs, when in a few days they started to distribute the new model. The Yak-1Bs went to the junkyard (or were used to repair newer and slightly damaged planes with their spare parts), and the fighter regiments were re-armed with the new model soon. So scrapping was their choice in favor of the new model, not the straight result of enemy actions.

Day to day Air Force operations were always extremely complex things, without knowing the unit diaries, mechanical reports, etc. everything is just pure speculation.

Gabor

[kirche]

Hello,
There don't seem to be 10 aerial victories in Kretov's award documents.
There is a quote in the description of the exploits of 01.12.1941 "during the attacks of fighters, he twice emerged victorious without losing the crew and the aircraft" (it can be conditionally interpreted as he shot down these fighters). The award list dated 27.09.1943 says about the same events: "a participant in 5 air battles in the areas of Grubeshow, Shepetovka, Kiev and Kakhovka - did not lose his place in the ranks and repelled fighter attacks. In September 1941, he was attacked by two fighters near Kakhovka - one was shot down by the fire of the shooters, and the second evaded the battle, while Kretov's plane received more than 200 hits, the shooters were wounded and he managed to return on one engine"

10.03.1943 also indicated the destruction of 26 aircraft at the Sarabuz airfield (possibly as part of a group?). 11.03.1943 - two planes at the airfield Mokraya. 17.07.1943 - there are two fires at the Stalino airfield (burnt-out aircraft are marked - is not specified); 01.08.1943 - Kuteynikovo airfield - two explosions and two searchlights.

[HGabor]

Originally Posted by marcus

Thank you for the detailed reply Gabor. I accept that the records you check are generally verified by details from research. And I accept that the process is very time consuming and tedious.
I was actually thinking on a more global scale. More what the records possibly DON'T say rather than what they do.
I go back to my comment about reconciling losses. Has anyone tried to calculate total losses for the conflict and then check that all the available loss records add up to that same number? Again, I say if they don't add up, then there is a problem.
Marcus

Marcus, I do not think that anyone had enough time and capacity to do such a massive research. (And more importantly: why would have?) Generally speaking all Soviet air army (inventory) records are kept and available at TsAMO in Fond 35 (not available online!) after 1943 'til VE-DAY and more. As opposed to German documentation which was mainly lost (mostly burned by the Germans themselves in 1945 before the final collapse) Soviet documentation survived the war as they sent them back to safety without loosing them during combat while they were advancing Westward. Docs from earlier years (1941-1942) might be incomplete, but I never researched them, so I do not know. But planes were lost all over the Soviet union in regular operations too in accidents, so reviewing everything seems to be impossible to me. Clearly who wants to do a FULL review does not have a clue how much stuff we are talking about and how complex the whole thing is. The research of only two air armies (5, 17 VA) between October 1944-1945 took nearly 1.5 decades from my life! (OK, free time.)

The only possible way is to select a Front/Air Army and time period, collect/purchase the copies from TsAMO for them (by the way it's not cheap and especially now I am not sure how it is possible during these sad and crazy circumstances), check who were their Axis opponents and claimers (so that you can match and compare the claims to the loss records) then allocate a few years of free time and get going... Something like that.

Good luck!
Gabor

[knusel]

Originally Posted by kirche

Hello,
There don't seem to be 10 aerial victories in Kretov's award documents.
There is a quote in the description of the exploits of 01.12.1941 "during the attacks of fighters, he twice emerged victorious without losing the crew and the aircraft" (it can be conditionally interpreted as he shot down these fighters). The award list dated 27.09.1943 says about the same events: "a participant in 5 air battles in the areas of Grubeshow, Shepetovka, Kiev and Kakhovka - did not lose his place in the ranks and repelled fighter attacks. In September 1941, he was attacked by two fighters near Kakhovka - one was shot down by the fire of the shooters, and the second evaded the battle, while Kretov's plane received more than 200 hits, the shooters were wounded and he managed to return on one engine"

10.03.1943 also indicated the destruction of 26 aircraft at the Sarabuz airfield (possibly as part of a group?). 11.03.1943 - two planes at the airfield Mokraya. 17.07.1943 - there are two fires at the Stalino airfield (burnt-out aircraft are marked - is not specified); 01.08.1943 - Kuteynikovo airfield - two explosions and two searchlights.

Good evening Kirche,

thanks for your interesting post.
Kretov's aerial score might not be reflected in his award documents because it was scored by his gunners and because it's not the main value for assessing the performance of a bomber pilot. I wonder if it's possible to find out where the number of 10 (or 12) aerial kills comes from...

Cheers,

Michael

[knusel]

Stepan Kretov did not reach an old age.
He died 10Jan75 at 55 years.
What was his cause of death?