Conversations between Luftwaffe prisoners - summer 1944 summary

[gedburke3]

Welcome to the forum Simon and thanks for a great first posting.
Kind regards
Gerry

[leonventer]

Originally Posted by gedburke3

Welcome to the forum Simon and thanks for a great first posting.

I'll second that!

I'm curious how much detail your book will contain about each of the listed conversations. It appears AIR 40 has not yet been digitized, so would one have to visit KEW or order it from their website to read them in full?

Thanks,
Leon Venter

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by leonventer

It appears AIR 40 has not yet been digitized, so would one have to visit KEW or order it from their website to read them in full?

Thanks,
Leon Venter

Yes, one would. There is so much of this material, spanning the whole war and all the German armed services, that ordering from the website would be a very expensive business.

In his book »Soldaten«, Sönke Neitzel said that his team had indexed all these reports (and copied them? I don’t remember now) but as far as I know, his index isn’t generally available. It would save a lot of time if it was.

P.S. IIRC Neitzel also thought he was the first to use these reports as a source but he was wrong about that.

[Simon Trew]

Thanks for the replies.

Leon,

I'm afraid that what I have included in my post is the full extent of my summary of each monitored conversation transcript. As you probably know, some of the transcripts are very short - a few sentences only. Others are very long (five or six single line-spaced pages, several thousand words). If I tried to be more detailed in my summary, the project would probably never get finished.

The stuff I cut and paste into my post comes from Appendix C to Chapter Nine of my bibliography. Appendix C includes not only summaries of Normandy-related material, but also a rather longer list of monitoring reports relating to Operation Steinbock. Altogether, Appendix C currently runs at 31 pages of A4 (around 14000 words).

Appendix B to the same chapter summarises DEFE 3 signals for June, July and August 1944 that deal with the Luftwaffe in Normandy. These are one-line summaries - again, something more detailed would take many months to produce. That appendix currently runs at 89 pages (51500 words). Here is the introduction and the first few entries (note, the remark about Bold and italicised entries is meaningless as the formatting on this posting doesn't seem to reproduce what exists in the original document):

Appendix B: DEFE 3 signals about Luftwaffe operations

This section of the bibliography describes the principal content of about 4000 signals that were sent to Allied field commands by British intelligence services during the Normandy campaign, and which are preserved in the DEFE 3 and HW 5 series in the UK National Archives. The appendix focuses on material that casts light on the Luftwaffe’s activities in the West during summer 1944, with particular reference to operations by flying units and flak formations. There are also many references to logistical matters, airfield serviceability and other subjects.

In the table below, signals are listed in their numerical-chronological sequence, rather than according to any other criterion. Coverage starts on 5 June 1944 and continues to the end of August. Generally speaking, priority is given to describing signals that are concerned primarily with aspects of the Normandy campaign. Attention is also given to operations by units based in the south of France (from 2. Fliegerdivision), some of which participated in anti-shipping operations off the Normandy coast. However, some material relating to operations in the French interior, and over the western Mediterranean, is omitted, since it seems peripheral to the contents of this bibliography.

A conscientious attempt was made to examine every one of the 12,000+ signals sent during the Normandy campaign, but it is likely that a few relevant items escaped my attention. Also, because I have sought to describe the principal content of each signal in a very limited space, my descriptions may be neither as detailed nor as helpful as some readers would wish. I hope nevertheless that enough information is provided to make this appendix of value to its intended users.

(For additional information about the origins and contents of DEFE 3 and HW 5 intelligence records, see Chapter 9, sections 2.1.1. and 2.1.2. See also sections 5.1.1. and 8.1.1. of the same chapter for information about related Luftwaffe material held in the UK National Archives.)

N.B. In the left-hand column of the table below, each signal is presented using either italics or bold characters as a form of emphasis. This is intended to indicate to readers whether or not the signal is referenced in F. H. (‘Harry’) Hinsley’s British Intelligence in the Second World War, Its Influence on Strategy and Operations: Volume Three, Part II (H.M.S.O., London 1988, chapters 46-48, chapter 51 and appendices 17 and 18), which is the most important published source that previously made use of the material summarised here. In cases where italics are used, the signal in question was described in the book and a footnote was used by the authors to indicate this fact. In cases where bold characters are used, however, it was not. Judging by the information presented below, it seems reasonable to assume that readers of Hinsley’s book may be unfamiliar with the contents of a very large proportion of the signals summarised in this appendix. For students of the Normandy campaign, this indicates that despite the great value of the work carried out by Hinsley and his team, close examination of the contents of the DEFE 3 series is still likely to reveal a considerable amount of interesting new material.

File and signal number Time and date signal sent to Allied field command Summary of signal’s principal contents

DEFE 3/166

KV 6561 0412 hrs 6 June Air operations Brittany 5 June
KV 6579 0704 hrs 6 June Rennes airfield unserviceable for night landing
KV 6606 1259 hrs 6 June X. Fliegerkorps aircraft & crew strength 4 June
KV 6619 1433 hrs 6 June 2.(F)/122 recce report evening 5 June
KV 6624 1404 hrs 6 June (F)/123 and NAG 13 recce tasks a.m. 6 June
KV 6627 1630 hrs 6 June Some flak details 27 May – 1 June
KV 6629 1642 hrs 6 June III./SG 4 arriving Laval 6 June
KV 6632 1651 hrs 6 June III Flak Corps to protect Evreux airfield 6 June
KV 6637 1854 hrs 6 June III./JG 3 aircraft & crew strength 5 June
KV 6638 1925 hrs 6 June X. Fliegerkorps intentions for evening 6 June
KV 6639 1853 hrs 6 June NAG 13 at Dinard on 6 June
KV 6642 1747 hrs 6 June IX. Fliegerkorps intentions for night 6-7 June
KV 6647 2041 hrs 6 June Luftflotte 3’s D-Day response (JG 1 & JG 3)
KV 6653 2109 hrs 6 June French airfield serviceability on 6 June
KV 6655 2118 hrs 6 June Plan to evacuate Carpiquet (Caen) airfield
KV 6662 2203 hrs 6 June Location of II./JG 53 on 28 May
KV 6667 2232 hrs 6 June Fighter control arrangements at Dreux 2 June
KV 6668 2236 hrs 6 June II./JG 2 joins JG 1 on 5 June
KV 6670 2325 hrs 6 June Arrangements for use of NAG 13 from 6 June
KV 6671 2344 hrs 6 June IX. Fliegerkorps intentions for night 6-7 June
KV 6673 2347 hrs 6 June OKL aviation fuel conservation orders 5 June

As for Chapter 9 (primary and secondary sources relating to the Luftwaffe in Normandy and also pre-invasion operations from January to 5 June 1944), that is fairly complete, but I'm hoping for some advice about missing items from people who are more expert on Luftwaffe operations than I am (my main area of expertise, if I dare to call it that, lies in land warfare). Once the gaps are filled, it will probably be publishable. Currently, it runs at 127 pages (around 60,000 words) - operations by Luftwaffe ground forces in Normandy are dealt with in a separate chapter and Chapter 9 is only about the activities of flying and flak units.

Appendix A is the one I am yet to write. That deals with TNA HW 5 sources. But I still need to look at some of those files and then collate the material.

Anyway, thanks for your interest and hopefully this clarifies issues a bit further.

Best,

Simon

[Simon Trew]

Sorry, I meant to add that Ref. Sonke Neitzel's project, my understanding is that his team was very well funded and that they accumulated digital copies of a vast quantity of material from US and UK archives that supported numerous research dissertations and subsequent publications as well as Prof Neitzel's two books. I have no idea, however, if there is any plan ever to make that material widely accessible, either for free or on a payment basis.

I am seeing Sonke in about ten days and I will ask him about this matter.

Simon

[leonventer]

Hi Simon and Nick,

Thanks very much for your detailed and helpful responses.

I'm afraid that what I have included in my post is the full extent of my summary of each monitored conversation transcript.

That's understandable. Trying to include more would no doubt have required multiple volumes! Nevertheless, your listing is very effective and useful in indicating what resources are available, and stimulating interest in researching them.

I hadn't looked at Neitzel's "Frontsoldaten" and "Tapping Hitler's Generals" in ages, so I got them off the shelf -- a nice rediscovery... And, as Nick suggested, I should also make my pilgrimage to the National Archives in Kew and D.C. (only been to Freiburg thus far.)
It'd be great if Sönke were to publish more of his trove (nearly 800 pages from Kew, and double that amount from D.C.), so please let us know.

All the best with your upcoming book -- looking forward to it!

Regards,
Leon Venter