Question regarding a victory for Heinz Bär 07/08/44

[Johannes]

Also agree with Junker. All sides had their fraudsters. There should be no heat of the battle mistakes if protocol followed correctly, but a pilot not seeing the crash but pretty sure of a fatal attack is not a "cheat", and can be considered honest, lets face it he may well have been trying to survive at the same time !

But those how just cheated, well they caused in my opinion terrible inflation regarding decorations.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Johannes

There should be no heat of the battle mistakes if protocol followed correctly …

Johannes

Adrenalin?

[MW Giles]

There should be no heat of the battle mistakes if protocol followed correctly

Really?

I play a well known tank driving game. The number of times I have fired at a tank, seen my shot hit and the tank go bang, only to find someone else got the killing shot.

Now I am sitting in my office with a good screen and the only shells coming my way will not hurt me personally in any way. Apart from my pride of course.

Without a computer to adjudicate I would be confidently marching down to the claims office demanding they increase my score

How much more difficult to do it for real. How much more open to, in all honesty, getting it wrong in a WWII fighter?

Martin

[focusfocus]

Guys,my question is not whether or not was a fraudster,but in this case (well documented),how was the OKL able to approve his request.

In his request,Bär is "honest":he saw nothing and has no witnesses!it's hard to do better,and yet,the OKL approved his request in total contradiction of the directive 55 270/41.

Same mystery for his claim 04/22/44 with witness and not approved!

Who is the "dishonest":Bär or the OKL?

michel

[Johannes]

Hi Michel

I believe, but have no evidence for it, that witnesses were not necessary for pilots with more than thirty confirmed claims. I also believe that the pilots rank has a part in it, Bär being of higher rank.

Perhaps a member has document proof about the above.

Kind regards

Johannes

[HGabor]

Hi michel, I would humbly suggest our book Verified Victories: Top JG 52 Aces Over Hungary 1944-45, and in it chapter 1: What is a Victory to help answer some of your questions. This chapter contains not only the verification system directives, but also a breakdown of the higher echelons of the Luftwaffe (very important to understand why things happened the way they did), along with many examples of how things could, and did, go awry.


Cheers!

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by HGabor

Hi michel, I would humbly suggest our book Verified Victories: Top JG 52 Aces Over Hungary 1944-45, and in it chapter 1: What is a Victory to help answer some of your questions. This chapter contains not only the verification system directives, but also a breakdown of the higher echelons of the Luftwaffe (very important to understand why things happened the way they did), along with many examples of how things could, and did, go awry.


Cheers!

Fully agree, your work meshes in well with that of Johannes and provides the best insight into claims, overclaims, verification, gaps and loopholes and flaws in the system that has been published to date so far

[focusfocus]

Hi HGabor

Thank you for your advice wich I followed.

Paragraphs 2 and 3 p.17 are particularly interesting and edifying,I understand the inflation of unjustified victories.

Paragraph 3 concerning the claim of Barkhorn and his confirmation.....whaou!

Best Regards
Michel

[Johannes]

Hi Michel

Regarding Barkhorn, it was said that he "over-claimed" as he neared "300" victories. However our source beyond the mikrofilms was from Hans Ring. These were accepted as "fact", but Gabor has clear document evidence that this is not true. For whatever reason Ring added false information to Barkhorn's abschüßelist. Obviously Barkhorn was ignorant of the details of his last "kills", Ring might even have given Barkhorn these details and Barkhorn would have been oblivious to the deception !

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S

Barkhorn was never one for claiming Il-2's, yet in this latter period after the mikrofilms ceased, with Ring's list he is claiming a much higher percentage of these difficult to "kill"
aircraft !