Some enlarged and 'tweaked' known photos of Me 262s

[Karoband]

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1172

307. According to Dan O'Connell, p. 162, the 798th Signals Corps extensively photographed this aircraft on 4 April 1945. The press-release that went with this photo reads: "This slightly damaged jet-propelled plane was found on an airfield at Giebelstadt, Germany by troops of the 12th Armoured [sic] Division, US 7th Army. The plane appears to have been hit in the right wheel by shrapnel, although left wheel assembly broke down as it landed, causing the plane to skid on runway. The plane carries two bombs, has two jet nacelles and a tricycle landing gear. Plane number is 500079, FI, D.A."



http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1173

308. Note the two 'bombs' to the left in this picture and the matching tail and nose tip colours.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1174

309. The aircraft code "F1+DA" indicates that this Me 262 A-1a (no bomb racks or camera bulges) belonged to the geschwaderstab of KG 76, a bomber unit that used Arado Ar 234 B-2s late in the war. The colour code used by the geschwaderstab of a bomber unit was either blue or green. Note, in this picture, the carefully painted band on the leading edge of the nacelle cowling, which is in the same manner and dimensions as the bands seen on the cowlings of the Jumo 004 engines of the Ar 234s of KG 76. I have never seen similar bands on aircraft of Me 262 units.

[Karoband]

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1175

310. This is a photo of Arado Ar 234 B-2 W.Nr. 140600 "F1+AA" of the geschwaderstab of KG 76 that was captured at Flensburg. If you look closely you can see the tip of the black "A" above the man's head. To my eye, the shading of the light coloured "A" is green which would also be the colour of the engine cowl bands. However, unlike KG 51's Me 262s, KG 76 did not apply tail tip colours to its Arados.



http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1176

311. In all photos of W.Nr. 500079, the simple black hakenkreuz has been oversprayed but is still visible. This picture gives a good view of how the thin white strip underscores the solid coloured tail tip.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1177

312. In this photo it can be seen that the colour of the "D" matches that of the tail tip in the previous picture. Also the open access hatch in the middle of the starboard balkenkreuz indicated that the FuG 16 Z apparatus was removed by the Germans before leaving Giebelstadt.

[Nick Beale]

312. In this photo it can be seen that the colour of the "D" matches that of the tail tip in the previous picture.

In this photo it can be seen that … once again someone had to go and stand in front of the damned fuselage markings!

I know the F1 code is documented (and has been discussed here in the past, I think with a big contribution from David E. Brown) but I'd still like to see it with my own eyes or, failing that, a KG 76 strength return that includes an Me 262.

[Dan O'Connell]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

In this photo it can be seen that … once again someone had to go and stand in front of the damned fuselage markings!

I know the F1 code is documented (and has been discussed here in the past, I think with a big contribution from David E. Brown) but I'd still like to see it with my own eyes or, failing that, a KG 76 strength return that includes an Me 262.

Nick, I'm pretty sure I DID see 262's on KG76 inventories, and must have mentioned that in some respect in the book.

[Dan O'Connell]

Nick. I do recall seeing something that I believe Manfred sent me once. some AR234 pilot from KG76 just walked into the "office" of possibly JG7 and just "asked" to borrow a 262 for a recon mission. Brought it back about an hour later LOL

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Dan O'Connell

Nick. I do recall seeing something that I believe Manfred sent me once. some AR234 pilot from KG76 just walked into the "office" of possibly JG7 and just "asked" to borrow a 262 for a recon mission. Brought it back about an hour later LOL

Thanks Dan,

Next question … if it's a KG 76 machine, how come large D/small A on the nosewheel door (KG 51 marking style) rather than DA all the same size (KG 76 style)?

[Dan O'Connell]

No idea Nick.

[Karoband]

Hi Nick,

So far, I have not seen any documentary evidence of KG 76 having Me 262s. Moreover, Jan Horn in KG 76 Die Chronik ... makes two references to an Ar 234 marked "F1+DA". However, just to muddy the waters further:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1178

This is a composite photo showing the styles and sizes of the markings by KG 51 and KG 76 and the placement of the black "F1" and "9K" ahead of the balkenkreuz. Note that in both cases the bottom of the 'aircraft letter' matches the lower white bar of the side of the balkenkreuz.

In a previous thread on W.Nr. 500079, Matolion posted a link to this poor photo from "A History of the United States Army Twelfth Armored Division".

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1179

Best regards,

Jim

[David E. Brown]

Gents,

Just a thought: What if the aircraft was indeed associated with KG 76 but originally from KG 51 and thus ‘prepared’ for KG 76 by them prior to handover?

“F1+DA” certainly was painted by someone associated with KG 51. This unit from its inception liked to ‘brighten-up’ their aircraft with colours associated their respective staffeln and gruppen painted on various component extremities. One can easily recognize it in photos of its aircraft from 1939 to the end of the war.

This particular machine’s markings are exactly what is seen on Me 262s from KG 51:

• The tips of the nose and fin are painted in the staffel colour and a contrasting bounding line of white or black.
• The style of the einheitkennzeichen of small (~20 cm high) geschwader and staffel characters.
• The aircraft kennung letter is large and outlined in a contrasting colour.
• The last two characters of the einheitkennzeichen “DA” are painted on the nose wheel door.
• The position of all these characters on the fuselage and nose wheel door.

Furthermore, KG 51’s Stab and I. Gruppe were stationed at Giebelstadt over the 20-30 March 1945 period. Per Dan O’Connell’s opus: “It was found damaged by the USA 12 Armored Division, 7th Army and extensively photographed by the 798th Signal Corps at Giebelstadt on 4 April 1945.” So there is an association with KG 51 and the location of “F1+DA”.

I should note that the alpha-numeric Einheitkennzeichen for other units like KG 76 (Ar 234s) and KG(J) 54 are completely different from KG 51. While their geschwader code was similarly small in size, the aircraft kennung was in a plain colour (Staffel) or black, and the kennung and staffel letters the same large size but smaller than KG 51 used. For KG(J) 54 (and KG(J) 6) their Me 262s renerally (but not always) had their nose tips painted in the gruppe and/or staffel colours, and sometimes the aircraft kennung letter painted on the nose wheel door. In mid-March 1945 KG(J) 54 and 6 switched to the single numeric kennung which is a different story.

BTW Nick, the “F1” marking is documented in the caption of a photograph that I think I posted some time ago. I find it improbable that the correspondent saw “9K” and wrote “F1”.

Nick and Jim, I can send you both the photo via email and one of you can post if you wish.

Best,

David

[Karoband]

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....pictureid=1180

Hi David,

Thank you so much for this picture.

As an aside, I just realized that the "bombs" to me appear to be Walter 109-500 R-Gerät RATO units used by Ar 234s, not Me 262s. On consulting Jan Horn, KG 76 Die Chronik ..., (2019) there is only one reference to Ar 234s of KG 76 at Giebelstadt on p. 274:

Vermutlich, um die nur leicht beschädigten und reparierten Ar 234 von Neuburg über Giebelstadt nach Achmer zurück zu bringen, sendet Maj. Polletin am 27. März 1945 um 22.30 Uhr das folgende Telex an das Einsatzkommando nach Neuburg:
"Die Landung in Giebelstadt wird für Zinn (Ar 234) mit Einschränkungen genehmigt. Unbedingt auf der Start- und Landebahn aufsetz. Auf Bombentrichter achten."

This date neatly coincides with yours.

best regards,

Jim