Churchill, Roosevelt, Stalin and 40 Boston bombers in 1942 – can serials be identified?

[Stig Jarlevik]

Dan

To get any further I believe a good starting point is to get the relevant British AM 78 cards and the
corresponding US IARCs

And before you ask, no I don't have them either, even if I wish I did.....

Cheers
Stig

[Dan History]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

To get any further I believe a good starting point is to get the relevant British AM 78 cards and the
corresponding US IARCs

Stig,

Thank you for your message.

I have seen plenty of examples of the Air Ministry Form 78 (Aircraft Movement Card) and the USAAF Individual Aircraft Record Card (IARC). I also have a copy of Robert A. Mann’s Aircraft Record Cards of the United States Air Force: How to Read the Codes. There is even a YouTube video on the subject, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et021XJDoes

None of that helps very much in identifying these 40 Bostons, because both the American and the British cards were intended to record the service of a particular aircraft within the USAAF or RAF. Transfers to other air forces are not recorded consistently, or with any clarity even in cases when these are in fact recorded. Since these Bostons were transferred initially from U.S. control to some RAF rear services unit and then to SAAF squadrons, it is not at all likely that the record cards will contain any relevant information. The place to look is either SAAF records, or else the records of the RAF rear services units in Iraq. Have any members of this forum looked at either of these sets of sources?

Kind regards,

Dan

[Zoran Petek]

Hello,
Above is one list published in the Warpaint series.
I also made different lists - by serial and/or code/sqn, mainly from orbs and losses lists, but my computer crashed (literally, in an earthquake), so it will take some time until I found copy of that file(s), on some flash drive or some backup cd.

Regards
Zoran

[Dan History]

Originally Posted by Zoran Petek

Above is one list published in the Warpaint series.
I also made different lists - by serial and/or code/sqn, mainly from orbs and losses lists, but my computer crashed (literally, in an earthquake), so it will take some time until I found copy of that file(s), on some flash drive or some backup cd.

Thank you very much, Zoran! Have you seen my private message?

The Warpaint list is an interesting one, though one which sadly casts no light on the fate of the aircraft with U.S. serials.

I am very sorry to hear about the problem you have had with your computer. The physical destruction of one's computer in an earthquake is perhaps an unusual cause of data loss, but no more pleasant than any other!

Happily, I have found one of your lists on this forum, at http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showpo...84&postcount=5 . From your list, it is clear that the RAF also used some Bostons with U.S. serials, though these A-20C-10 aircraft from the 42-33*** serial range were manufactured in late 1942, so were distinct from the 40 Bostons transferred in July of that year.

Kind regards,

Dan

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by Dan History

None of that helps very much in identifying these 40 Bostons, because both the American and the British cards were intended to record the service of a particular aircraft within the USAAF or RAF. Transfers to other air forces are not recorded consistently, or with any clarity even in cases when these are in fact recorded. Since these Bostons were transferred initially from U.S. control to some RAF rear services unit and then to SAAF squadrons, it is not at all likely that the record cards will contain any relevant information. The place to look is either SAAF records, or else the records of the RAF rear services units in Iraq. Have any members of this forum looked at either of these sets of sources?
Kind regards,
Dan

Well Dan

All I am saying is that I believe that is the place you need to start. If you get lucky or not is something
I don't know.

Cheers
Stig

PS: The list provided by Zoran does not entirely fit the list in Brent's book on the SAAF aircraft.

[Dan History]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

The list provided by Zoran does not entirely fit the list in Brent's book on the SAAF aircraft.

Thank you for your further comment, Stig. Would it be possible to ask you for the list from Brent's book?

Here is a further twist to the tale. The following caption appears in Air Arsenal North America, by Phil Butler and Dan Hagedorn:

"Douglas Boston III 119406 coded ‘F’ of No.12 Squadron, SAAF, at Landing Ground ‘Z’ (Mahsma) in the Suez Canal area, about the time of the Battle of El Alamein. This was one of the forty Bostons intended for delivery to the USSR that was repossessed while en-route, for service with the RAF Desert Air Force. This one was allotted the RAF serial number HK899 locally by Air Headquarters in Cairo, although it is not known if that was ever painted on the aircraft.
IWM CM4682"

That is therefore an aircraft from Zoran's list, which I linked to above, "41-19406/F 12 Sqn SAAF, X.42-III.43." The Warpaint list that Zoran provided does indeed list serial HK899 as assigned to 12 SAAF. Yet, Alex has cited James J. Halley's Air Britain volume as assigning this serial to a batch of Bostons "Transferred from Russian deliveries in December 1942", in exchange for British Spitfires. Hence, it is not at all clear whether 41-19406 and HK899 were in fact one and the same aircraft, or two different ones.

Kind regards,

Dan

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hi Dan

I will be happy to send the pages from Brent's book.
Unfortunately he has used a printing company which, in my eyes, were second class, meaning the binding
has started to crack and I cannot scan the pages.
On the other hand I can use my phone and take pictures.

Please send me a PM with your e-mail address and I will get right to it.
FYI Brent lists no USAAF s/ns, only RAF ones. HK899 and not 119406. Since it was SOC in 1945 I am pretty
certain it was painted at some point as HK899

Cheers
Stig

[Dan History]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

I will be happy to send the pages from Brent's book.
Unfortunately he has used a printing company which, in my eyes, were second class, meaning the binding
has started to crack and I cannot scan the pages.
On the other hand I can use my phone and take pictures.

Please send me a PM with your e-mail address

Thank you, Stig! Private message is in your inbox Phone pictures will be just fine, all I am looking for is the set of serial numbers, not a high quality scan.

I assume the SAAF did manage to pain the serial on the aircraft before it was struck off charge, but one cannot be sure until there is photographic evidence, which might be difficult to obtain in 2023, a few years after the event

Kind regards,

Dan