Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain

[edwest2]

Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner

Carsten, I believe this is a milestone too, but in a broader sense and aspect. When the OLD EAGLES like John Vasco, Chris Goss, Nick Beale, Christer Bergström, J-L Roba, J-Y Lorant, Dilip Sarkar, Erick Monbeeck and others like them, who HAD direct access to the RAF, LW and WW2 aircrew veterans will make their "last landing" (and I do hope they will reach 100+ like some Bomber Command and LW veterans, so we can enjoy reading more from them); who is gonna take the flame and toch? This Miss, even with her PhD and other Academical tittles seems to have not matched the "Old" standard, as far as I have read here...so we are talking about the futur of Aeronautical and Military Aviation Publication (and research)....and for me this is the "face" of the new Generation, although we have seen some FANTASTIC and "outside the curve" writers and researchers, like OLROG, BREKKEN, KJETIL, some French writers....so I see a good futur in the hands of those who will take care of, and inherit the "flame" and tradition of the old eagles (Bowman, Middlebrook, Bolitho, etc.) and those who are still on the "circuit", but not so young....

As a researcher of many subjects outside this field, I had to learn to do proper research by the seat of my pants. I have no college degree. But the basics never change, it only requires that willingness to learn and dedication.

In this field, the basics are always the same. Original witnesses was one, but those individuals have passed. What remains are photos, original documents, and diaries. Perhaps crash sites might yield other clues.

I am wary of books produced by known academic publishers. They tend to be more general when covering a topic or go on tangents that don't interest me. New writers entering the field need a wide range of sources and contact with other, established writers, or to at least read their work as a template of how it's done. I have read a number of master's theses online and they tend to lack a depth of understanding of the subject matter. They don't read very well in general. Research is one skill and learning how to write well is another.

Back to this book, it appears to suffer from an overabundance of breathless praise. This suggests to me that those quoted missed the fact that a substantial portion of this book does not cover the Battle of Britain. Or that they were so enthralled that someone completed a book like this that the actual contents were less important than the final book as a whole. That said, I shudder to think that the reviewers quoted are in any way representative of this field or military history publishing in general.

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Nick,

My late father was a PhD, graduated on the CNRS in France, where we lived 4 years. I know what it takes to obtain that degree, having seen my father passing nights and nights alone digiting his thesis. However, in Brazil, nowadays it involves more politics and “to Butter someone up” (the Mastermind or Professor-Advisor) than personal capacity (I speak for myself and for the experience my wife related me. On my case, the Professor-Advisor wanted me to become her French-Portuguese translator, if I wanted to obtain a chance on the Master Degree; which I kindly declined. My wife took the Master test 2 times, on the last one the Professor-Advisor informed her that for THAT particular year, the candidate was already chosen…before the end of the tests!!…so would she kindly apply next year, so she would have a good chance! The chosen student was already the Professor-Advisor’s “fish”…so no one had a chance…even if you were better Academically qualified, if you spoke more languages or had more published Academic works…the place was already chosen before the test!). I do not know how it works in the UK Academies, nowadays, for instance.

Am sure that, if some of us here on the Forum were given the chance, we would have obtained also our Masters and Doctorate Degrees, am sure. Of course, only this Lady knows what she passed throughout to get her Doctorate in History, and I take my hat for that. By the way, I did not remember that Alfred Price did have a PhD (and I do have some of his works/books on the shelves)…the Dr “tittle” do appear on very few of the cover of his books:

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sea..._ac_d_11&sts=t

Your own work on the NSGr.9 (which I do have and read), or Eric Monbeeck’s JG 2 History (or any other of his books), or Jean-Yves Lorant’s JG 300 History, which took 25 years of interviews, personal meetings (like you did with the NSGr.9 veterans), travels, review of Flugbüche and other documents ARE PhD or Post-Doctorates in themselves. So are the books of Dr. Jochem Prien and several other “Historians” and Researchers (French, Russians, Americans, Belgians, etc.). Most of you do not even have a Graduation in History, some are engineers, lawyers, etc….so the tittle here is just a “label”. Some UK authors are former RAF officers, but they do not use the “label” Squadron Leader or Wing Commander, on the tittles of their books or when they do sign their books. I met personally two of them, in 2019; one who saw combat in Iraq…his humility was (and am sure still is) impressive.

The PhD or whatever kind of “label” one may have (Captain, Director, Air-Chief Marshal, Doctor, etc.) is not directly proportional to the work or personality.

What I am meaning is that her PhD tittle did not help her to find the correct number of Bf 110’s damaged or lost in the Battle of Britain, according to one of the type experts and a “Historian” who published several books on the subject (John Vasco). We do not even know from where she took that information of the number of machines. You may be a General (and several UK Generals were sacked off during the war, including the commander of XXX Corps, after D-Day) or an Air Marshal (some were also sacked up from their positions in WW2)…if you do not do your work properly the tittle you do have before your name will not help.

And we, as Human Beings, we all make mistakes from time to time, so no blame on anyone. Recently a Historian published here an ERRATA of one of his works…typo errors, mistakes…anyway, that may happen to each of one here. History is something interesting…an undiscovered document or artifact or grave may appear and change something else that had previously been published (recently the wreckage of Otto Kittel’s machine was found, for instance).

Each author does know what he or she wants to pass to the reader. Of course, there are also the Editors, who rules out or cut something or ask for something else (to change the cover, for instance). So, one thing is to write a book, the other thing is to have it published. Maybe the tittle of her work did not help her, this time….because, if it is related to the Battle of Britain and John Vasco is reporting here that he is in the middle of the book and there is nothing related to the BoB yet…something is wrong there. And the quotation or letters from unknown LW soldiers somewhere on or from Germany…does not seems to be related directly to the Battle of Britain…(did she interviewed him personally? From where she obtained that first-hand information or letter?). Is she just trying to give us a glimpse of how it was on the home front, for a Luftwaffe soldier? I really did not get her point there….

There are good covers which bring us to good books and concise texts inside….
There are poor covers that, nevertheless, take us to nice texts inside (some without hundreds of photos, in some cases!),
And there are huge tittles that bring us nowhere. I do give you the example of Mr. David Baker “The Air War, 1939-1945” which was translated to Portuguese and was the first book I was unable to finish. Poorly translated, seems to have been written with IA, going from one side to another, just scratching the surface of the subjects, etc…a terrible reading experience, on my point of view.

https://www.amazon.com.br/Guerra-193.../dp/6558880555

As customers of WW2 books, we are just discussing here the pros and cons of this particular work of here. I do not know the Lady in question and do not know what she passed through to have this/her book published. Maybe she was more successful on another topic as some pointed out…anyway. A good topic and a good polite discussion.
I do quote Van den Besselaar (1974): “Historical knowledge is necessarily based on testimonies or documents. "Past de documents, pas d’Histoire".

EDWEST2, I do agree with you. Thanks for your comments.

[edwest2]

Adriano, thank you for your kind words.

[John Vasco]

edwest2: Excellent post #121. I, too, have no college degree, but in hindsight realise I was fortunate to be trained in the British Government department that I worked in as an 'Internal Investigator' (the Gov Department paid out State benefits, so was open to staff commiting internal fraud). The investigative training went way beyond the training the Police receive, and that helped greatly (I believe) with my research. The Rudyard Kipling short rhyme guided everything we did, and worked equally as well with all of my research:
I KEEP SIX HONEST SERVING MEN
THEY TAUGHT ME ALL I KNEW
THEIR NAMES ARE: WHAT AND WHY AND WHEN
AND HOW AND WHERE AND WHO
The above should be the metric by which all research is founded upon. From my reading over the decades, sadly that has not always been the case.

Adriano: I am not an 'expert'. I am someone who started on a path of trying to find information on a particular topic, and it grew and grew from there. What I did, and eventually achieved, could have been done by anyone else. That's all.

[edwest2]

Thank you John. As a point of interest, when you're done, I'd like to know if you found anything in this book "revelatory."

Best,
Ed

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by edwest2

Thank you John. As a point of interest, when you're done, I'd like to know if you found anything in this book "revelatory."

Best,
Ed

Will do, Ed. That is exactly what I am looking out for...

[John Vasco]

Chapter 8 read

Early weeks of July. Much about the German hierarchy and the preparations for a possible invasion of southern England. Hitler's 'appeal to reason'. Bomber Command's continued incursions, and the formation of the German night fighter force (you can read all about that in far greater detail in the book Peter Cornwell and I did in 1995, 'The Messerschmitt 110 and its units in 1940') and an interception on by Streib on 20th July.

Quote from the 'Baruther Anzieger' newspaper of 18th July. Quote from the Swiss 'Zürcher Illustrierte' magazine about 'Threatened England'. A quote from a Gefreiter in Flak Regiment 231...

Details of combat on 24th July, all of which is well-known to those who have read about the Battle.

Beaut of a sentence on page 137: '...Although the Channel Battle is often neglected by historians in favour of studying the Adlerangriff (Eagle Day) which took place from mid-August' [well there's a surprise, she'll enlighten us on her chosen topic!]. If that's what she thinks, she's been reading the wrong books, FFS! Rambles on about the rest of July with no discernable continuity or thread.

Make your own mind up about the above...

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Thanks John, for giving us a glimpse of the Chapter 8 and the kind of juice we got at the end of pressing up the oranges...not too much for my taste, sadly.

I would like to know how many books or references are quoted on the Bibliography and if she read some of you, who published before she was born, books about the Battle of Britain History when the veterans were still alive and you had direct contact with them....

Each chapter you are passing through are giving us a clearer overview; and in my mind and humble opinion (without a Master or PhD degree), I do have already a formed opinion...but maybe there is some light at the end of the tunnel.

And by the way, I loved the story of the 6 men. Shall print that and keep at hand...

A.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner

I would like to know how many books or references are quoted on the Bibliography

A.

See my post #78 above. There is no separate bibliography, sources are identified in the notes on each individual chapter. My own impression was her list of primary and secondary sources was respectable — even if the words 'Bletchley Park', Enigma' and 'ULTRA' do not appear in the index.

Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner

ILW soldiers somewhere on or from Germany…does not seems to be related directly to the Battle of Britain…(did she interviewed him personally? From where she obtained that first-hand information or letter?).

She explains in the book that she used archives in Germany which hold personal letters and diaries. I think from memory that the Institut für Zetgeschichte was one of them.

[John Vasco]

Adriano,
She hasn't referenced any of my books.

I'll list those researchers/authors she has referenced later.

And Kipling's six serving men. Not only useful for researchers, but also for everyone who reads historical works. You can always apply those tests to what you are reading. Very useful.