An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?

[Steve Coates]

I think he'd rather you placed an order!

[HGabor]

Hi all, this is Daniel using Gabor's account.


We must understand that a claim does not necessarily mean a loss on the opponents side; a victory. Given this, a pilot's total claim count which may be very high, proven by wartime documents, is still historically correct. These claims do not, however, translate into victories, and effectively leave us with two lists for the pilot: a claims list and a victories list.


To the first post's question, this is a time intensive research exercise. Existing books which have compiled claims include the Luftwaffe Aces' series (vols. 1-4) by Mathews and Foreman. I would recommend these books as they are excellent. Yes, since their publication new information has come to light, but this is not a fault of those authors. As for victory verification, I could recommend Theo Boiten's NJ series and of course our own, limited-in-scope, Verified Victories. They may be others out there too such as Drei "Falken" der II./JG52 auf der Krim im Luftkampf um die Kertsch-Halbinsel (1943-1944).

Also true is my upcoming article in the Axis Wings vol.5. Should you be interested in the general topic I would humbly recommend this as well.

All the best,
Daniel using Gabor's account.

[Franek Grabowski]

There is some perpetuating misunderstanding. Pilots (or aircrew) submitted claims, that following some sort of verification were rejected or confirmed, and they formed approved victories. Cross check against actual losses is completely different thing, and often with a big marigin of error. This has never been done officially, and never would be for WWII due to insufficient evidence. While cross checking one should take into account claims, victories but also those never submitted claims, if there is evidence. It is not unusual to find out that never submitted or rejected claims turned real, while credited victories unsubstantiated.

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

It is not unusual to find out that never submitted or rejected claims turned real, while credited victories unsubstantiated.

Yes

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by Steve Coates

I think he'd rather you placed an order!

Cheers, Steve

I totally intend to

[richdlc]

Originally Posted by Nick Hector

Can you please post a legibly sized screenshot? It's really small and impossible to read

Cheers

just click on it - just giving a heads-up that there's an article forthcoming

[NickM]

Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov

Yes

I noticed that phenomenon in The Horvaths' book in II/JG52 over Hungary, especially with Helmut Lipfert: he actually shot down several aircraft (in some cases, they were Romanian flown BF109s) but he didn't bother to claim them for try to follow them down. I was impressed that Lipfert's claim accuracy was close to the mid 90% rate (over Hungary, at least), and of course his War Memoirs are a great read as well.

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello Nick,

Originally Posted by NickM

I was impressed that Lipfert's claim accuracy was close to the mid 90% rate (over Hungary, at least)

Yes, Lipfert’s figures for the Caucasus and Crimea also show a high % of credible claims. These aren’t always downed aircraft; sometimes they’re damaged, but nonetheless.

Best regards,
Andrey

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

The Luftwaffe flew far more ground attack missions than fighters ones. The activities by fighter bombers units (SG) has few covering, except for Chris Goss books, compared to the fighters ones.

Let's forget my books on Erprobungsgruppe 210, and SKG 210/ZG 1, then...

[Broncazonk]

We have all seen the Erich Hartmann worship.

https://x.com/hw97karbine/status/209...357376601?s=20

https://x.com/Das_Pazer/status/2098482158210048069?s=20

And I do mean, worship.

Yet everyone, literally everyone, who reads and studies this forum knows, beyond a preponderance of the evidence, and indeed, beyond clear and convincing evidence, and in plain fact, beyond any reasonable doubt that Erich Hartmann does not deserve this worship.

My point is simple: if people around the world want to worship the top scoring fighter pilot of WWII (and of all time) shouldn't they, at the very least, be worshipping the right man?

Bronc