China air battle 27 or 28 october 1944

[Laurent Rizzotti]

If someone has the Osprey book "P-40 Aces of CBI" (or something like that), I have been said that there is a description of a successful battle of the 3rd FG of the Chinese-American force, that claimed 16 victories on 27 October 1944 over Kingnem. A P-40 of the group was lost this day (MACR 9689)

From Japanese sources (in fact the book "Japanese Army air units and ace"), the battle happened the next day and saw the loss of 3 Oscar and 2 Lily bombers.

I will be interested by a scan or a copy of the description of this action.

Thanks in advance

Laurent

[gian paolo]

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

If someone has the Osprey book "P-40 Aces of CBI" (or something like that), I have been said that there is a description of a successful battle of the 3rd FG of the Chinese-American force, that claimed 16 victories on 27 October 1944 over Kingnem. A P-40 of the group was lost this day (MACR 9689)

From Japanese sources (in fact the book "Japanese Army air units and ace"), the battle happened the next day and saw the loss of 3 Oscar and 2 Lily bombers.

I will be interested by a scan or a copy of the description of this action.

Thanks in advance

Laurent

Hi Laurent


I have something about this action . just wait


All the best

gian paolo

[gian paolo]

Originally Posted by gian paolo

Hi Laurent


I have something about this action . just wait


All the best

gian paolo

OK....

This is my first post and hope to be useful

I'm reasonably sure the dates 27 and 28/10 are both correct the 27 being the US time , the 28 the local time

Here is a brief summary of the action I have pieced together from 3 books (if you are interested I' ll give you the titles )


ON 27/10/1944 LTC Bill Reed led a formation of 16 p-40n ( 3 cacw fg ) on a train busting mission

After strafing a locomotive , Reed led formation over Japanese airfield at Kingmen catching an estimated 9 ki-48 liky and 8-10 ki-43 oscar on landing pattern
p-40 claimed 16 planes in air + 4 on ground for 1 loss - CAPT Bill Lewis bailed out on friendly territory because of engine trouble


the Japanese source I have give no total of planes lost but list 3 ki-43 pilots of 25 Sentai KIA

Best wishes

gian paolo

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Oops, forgot to say thank you

I have also the names of three pilots of 25 Sentai lost, from
“Japanese Army Air Force fighter units and their aces 1931-1945”, by Ikuhiko Hata, Yasuho Izawa and Christopher Shores

Major Takeo Matsuyama, who had taken command of the 25 Sentai (Ki 43-II, based in Bailuqi, Central China) only a couple of weeks earlier (after the death of the former commander on 17 September), led a formation of 8 fighters to escort light bombers. Over Jingmen they were engaged by an intercepting force of ten plus. Matsuyama and two other pilots of this unit, Lt Itsuo Emi and Sgt Tadashi Shono (14-victory ace, bio p 256, birth date 7 August 1922) were shot down and killed; two of the light bombers were also lost.

The data about the two bombers shot down is given by the unit history, or in the biography of the killed ace, but is from the above book.

As for the date, I'm not sure of your explanation. China and Japan are on the same side of the date change line, and both sides used the same date for all other battles I know.

[gian paolo]

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

Oops, forgot to say thank you

I have also the names of three pilots of 25 Sentai lost, from
“Japanese Army Air Force fighter units and their aces 1931-1945”, by Ikuhiko Hata, Yasuho Izawa and Christopher Shores

Major Takeo Matsuyama, who had taken command of the 25 Sentai (Ki 43-II, based in Bailuqi, Central China) only a couple of weeks earlier (after the death of the former commander on 17 September), led a formation of 8 fighters to escort light bombers. Over Jingmen they were engaged by an intercepting force of ten plus. Matsuyama and two other pilots of this unit, Lt Itsuo Emi and Sgt Tadashi Shono (14-victory ace, bio p 256, birth date 7 August 1922) were shot down and killed; two of the light bombers were also lost.

The data about the two bombers shot down is given by the unit history, or in the biography of the killed ace, but is from the above book.

As for the date, I'm not sure of your explanation. China and Japan are on the same side of the date change line, and both sides used the same date for all other battles I know.

Laurent


Different dates aside - I hope someone else will be able to solve the question - both Japanese an American descriptions of the action match quite well , including the types and number of planes engaged:

Moreover the book " Wing to Wing -Air Combat in China 1943-1945 " describing in detail the Chinese - American Composite Group report no action on 28/10.


All the best

gian paolo

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Gian, I fully agree with you, both sides described the same action.

IMOO, the date in US documents is backed by more sources (official US claims lists, MACR, Mr Molesworth's book) than the Japanese one, for each I have only one source, that was not specialized in this area, contrary to Mr Molesworth.

So my guess is that the 27 October 1944 is the good date.

By the way, I didn't know the book "Wing to Wing", will search it on the Net, it seems very interesting to me

[shooshoobaby]

Laurent - "Wing to Wing " by Carl Molesworth is an interesting Book.
Excellent History of CACW - Rare Photos. Good Narrative of Air Battle Oct. 27 , 44
He also wrote " Sharks Over China " 23d FG , 14th AF
Mike

[gian paolo]

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

Gian, I fully agree with you, both sides described the same action.

IMOO, the date in US documents is backed by more sources (official US claims lists, MACR, Mr Molesworth's book) than the Japanese one, for each I have only one source, that was not specialized in this area, contrary to Mr Molesworth.

So my guess is that the 27 October 1944 is the good date.

By the way, I didn't know the book "Wing to Wing", will search it on the Net, it seems very interesting to me

Laurent


Hammel : Air War Pacific Chronology set US claims at 5 ki-48 + 11

fighters



Cheers

gian paolo

[Laurent Rizzotti]

You have this book ? Lucky you.... I tried to buy it this month, the best price I found was around 1500 dollars....

Best regards

Laurent