Bundesarchiv Material in Public Domain

[Franek Grabowski]

Andreas, you must be kidding! Both their prices and general policy are just ridiculous. A royalty here in Poland is about 25 Euros per page, so a single photo is more than that, and please do not forget 2-3 photos are the minimum for such a volume.
I think you are missing the point of archive's existence. National archive in general should store archive material and make it available for interested parties, that is why they get money from tax-payers. Instead of that BA is limiting access to the stuff, demanding excessive fees and paperwork.
Important note is that their holdings are not copyrighted since the end of the war, so it makes the situation even more crazy and ridiculous.
On the other hand, I have heard that they have destroyed their vast collection of original negatives due to nitrocelulose content, and their copy negatives are a far cry form the originals.

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hi!
I have just bought a Brazilian aviation magazine that ( it is not the first time that it occurs ) have used dozens of photographs previously published on Prien´s books, Bf 109 in Action book, etc...it seems mostly Bundesarchiv photos. Certainly they are not private ones.
Does the copyrights for magazines differs from those for books? How does it works?
Nice to see that in Poland, at least the prices are cheap than in Germany. I quite do agree with the last posting. The charges could be reduced a bit more to facilitate the full access for everybody.

[yogybär]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Andreas, you must be kidding! Both their prices and general policy are just ridiculous. A royalty here in Poland is about 25 Euros per page, so a single photo is more than that, and please do not forget 2-3 photos are the minimum for such a volume.
I think you are missing the point of archive's existence. National archive in general should store archive material and make it available for interested parties, that is why they get money from tax-payers. Instead of that BA is limiting access to the stuff, demanding excessive fees and paperwork.
Important note is that their holdings are not copyrighted since the end of the war, so it makes the situation even more crazy and ridiculous.
On the other hand, I have heard that they have destroyed their vast collection of original negatives due to nitrocelulose content, and their copy negatives are a far cry form the originals.

Franek, some comments:
1) Isn't nearly everything much cheaper in Poland then in Germany?
2) Why should anyone who doesn't pay taxes in Germany have a right to ask for any free services from the German government?
3) IMHO, even if it is a german citizen "working" in any field as special as ours, there is no obligation for the government to support private activities. And above that, even if it is as high-classsed as for example Dr. Prien's work. It stays each individuals own "risk", wether it is hobby or profession. A normal taxpayer might be very angry if he should pay taxes so that all golbal WW2-enthusiasts could freely access these archives.

To make it short: If the BA helps someone accessing documents, they should have the right to ask for payment, even more, if that person is not german.

Apart from that, copyrights are a difficult topic, but I also don't know how to handle it "just".

[Andreas Brekken]

Hello, Franek

We disagree, plain and simple, and no discussion online will change that.

To me, the fact that I can access preserved historical documents is worth spending some money. I have come to the conclusion that I will never earn money by being an aviation enthusiast, and every book project I have heard of in the 'private sector' is a question of break-even with regards to money spent and money earned.

I of course see that if you are going to publish a book with 3-400 photographs and pay the fees to BA for every one you have a lot of cost to count in as a basis for the project. If you check out what sudek13 has paid for the 350 last high quality photographs he has won on eBay, it would be interesting to see what the cost is per photo...

But to my rather long conclusion - rather than burn or dump the lot (like the norwegian air force did with almost all the documents the building department had at Gardermoen before they started constructing the new airport there...) the government in Germany has decided to use tax money to keep a national archive for military history (and of course also civilian history).

I am glad they did, and I do not claim the right that I as a foreign citizen should be able to have free access to their holdings with no cost whatsoever (and people - the cost here is for copies and the right to publish, if you go to the BA/MA there is no cost involved when researching their holdings from the readers room. At the Bildarchiv you have to pay a fee for each day you are there). It would be interesting to see exactly how much the BA use each year to pay their staff, to preserve their holdings etc.

What one could wish for is of course that they adopted the system from National Archives in London, where you rather than having to pay for copies are able to take 'digital notes' by using a digital camera to photograph the documents for research at home.

But - until then I will be happy to be able to access the original documents at the archives in Freiburg and Koblenz. A week on a hotel in Freiburg with a group of enthusiasts and friends researching the archives at day and discussing the findings and other aviation history related over dinner at night is not the worst way to spend a week in my opinion.

BTW, any of you guys in Freiburg late April?

:-) to all,
Andreas B

[Bob Korkuc]

Thanks for all of the comments about use of BA-MA material. I emailed the BA-MA and learned the following.

> Sehr geehrter Herr Korkuc,
>
> auf Ihre o.a. Anfrage teile ich Ihnen mit, dass es sich bei diesen Filmen,
> die aus den USA in das Bundesarchiv gelangt sind, nicht um Archivgut
> des Bundesarchivs handelt und daher von hier auch keine Genehmigung
> für die Wiedergabe erteilt werden kann. Über die Herkunft der
> verfilmten Abschuss-meldungen, die möglicherweise aus den National
> Archives stammen, kann ich
> Ihnen leider keine verbindliche Auskunft geben.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen
> Im Auftrag
>
> Elfriede Frischmuth

The gist of the conversation was that the LP Luftwaffe Claims List ledger contained on the films in question were obtained from the National Archives. Thus the BA-MA could not provide permission to use photocopy depictions of the claims. Previously when I contacted the National Archives they indicated that all WWII material was in the public domain, free from copyright issues and could be used in books as long a proper citation was given. Thus with this reply from the BA-MA, the material is free from copyright issues and I will cite them as the source.

A mystery still exists what happened to the Ledger Claims Lists original paper sources? The NA does not claim to have nor does the BA-MA.

Regards,

Bob

[Bob Korkuc]

Last point, when I received the Luftwafee Claims list material via a researcher (Sebastian Remus), I paid a fee to obtain them. Thus I feel that they were compensated already for the use of the material.

[David Ransome]

Hi,

Regrettably a lot of paper documentation has been destroyed after being microfilmed as, at the time, it was considered too costly for the storage. Even as recently as 1999 I was personally aware of certain Civil Servants authorising the destruction of valuable historical documentation (some WWI and more WWII, from a variety of operations areas), often without any attempt at microfilming, including PoW cards. One lady in particular had the attitude that this sort of stuff was for Government / Civil Service use only and, when not needed officially, should be destroyed as it would be of no use to anyone. Of course, once destroyed, the documentation can not be found or passed on to foreign governments!

I managed to get some stuff saved then (including a list of PoWs for one camp which was enclosed in a cover made from an old Shell fuel can!) and I would hope that this sort of mindless and selfish destruction has now ceased.

David

[edwest]

Gentlemen,


I am in no way trying to confuse the issue but some of you may find this resource of interest: http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/UrhG.htm (Sections V, VI, and VII are the relevant ones.)

I disagree with Franek regarding paper disintegrating. Granted, storage is an issue, but I have recently purchased periodicals printed on poor paper from the early 1900s. And Civil War era (mid 1800s) newspapers are available on eBay. I've seen them. A friend of mine recently contacted me about a Land Grant document signed by President Grant, dated shortly after the Civil War.



Regards,
Ed