Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please

[canonuk]

Originally Posted by G.R.Morrison

The Bf 109G-2 (not G-4) illustrated is not Rodel's aircraft. It belonged to the ..... Ju 87B-2 "T6+AD" that not his, etc.

HTH, GRM

Hey,

I'd love to hear where you got this information. I've seen this aircraft attributed to Rodel in many places, so I'm keen to hear where you found out it's not his.

Thanks,

Joe

[Jim P.]

Definitely JG 77. See Prien's JG 77 history. Another 'well-known' machine 'White A' that is purportedly that of Schroer also fits this scenario. It's actually a JG 77 machine. I think there was also a G-6 so marked.

[Mark Steinitz]

To all,

A very interesting exchange; thanks to all. If I might take the opportunity of having the attention of so many knowledgeable members, can anyone refer me to photos of any of the later model 109 G's flown by Roedel? I find none in Prien's volume I on JG 27 in the short section that includes the Stabstaffel and Roedel's tenure as Commander of the Geschwader. Also, nothing in the Osprey Series books that cover JG 27, 109 G/K Aces of the Western Front, 109 Aces of the Med, or the newer volume on 109 Defenders of the Reich. Thanks in advance for any information.

[Jim P.]

To my knowledge there have been no published photos of any of Roedel's later machines. And the Osprey titles are probably the last place you'd ever find a photo of a Roedel machine.

Its too bad we don't have more markings discussions on this site.

[Jesters-Ink]

It fascinates me how sketchy the information is on German aircraft.
There are a huge amount of publications available on the subject, but sadly many bristle with incorrect assumptions and unreliable information. The ones I used to think were reliable are not and have caught me out a few times. So to the guys in the “know”, what would you recommend as being a good reliable source for this kind of research?

[Von Alles]

thank you all for sharing these valuable informations.
But about T6+AD Ju 87 : who was the true pilot ?
Best regards

Von Alles

[John Beaman]

Originally Posted by Von Alles

thank you all for sharing these valuable informations.
But about T6+AD Ju 87 : who was the true pilot ?
Best regards

Von Alles

BRÜCKER, Hptm. Heinrich flew an R-2 so marked on several ocassions.

[Jim P.]

Stuka drivers are George's thing - hopefully he'll come back and answer.

Jesters - you think things are sketchy now? How about 15-20 years ago?

What kind of information are you referring to? I'm presuming markings and camouflage. The biggest problem with keeping up with the latest and greatset in this area is the cost. These leading edge books are expensive, but its like anything else, you get what you pay for. Titles are too numerous to mention, but anything from Prien, Rodeike, Stemmer, Mombeek, Caldwell, Crandall, Urbanke to name but a few, should be a good start.

[Jesters-Ink]

Hi Jim, I try and stick to four projects at a time. Sometimes it gets out of hand and there ends up being more. Right now I am very keen to find out the "who, where, when and W.Nr for the profile on previous of this post triple chevron white 4. It’s the aircraft that inspires me, not the pilot. I'm not bothered that Rodel didn't fly it, but more interested in who did.

You have got to admit that text on a profile print looks a bit pathetic when it says:-
"Bf109G-2 or 4, somewhere in the desert between 1942 and 43 flown by an unknown pilot".

[G.R.Morrison]

Couldn't help myself with the title of the post. ;-)

To return to the WNr. request, and to address "Who's T6+AD?"

The pranged triple-white-chevron machine is most-likely (see? not much in the Luftwaffe is cast-iron certain!) Bf 109G-2/Trop WNr.10645, written off in a "Bruchlandung; Bodenverhaeltnisse" (crash-landing, hit an obstruction) 1.December 1942 at Arco Philaenorum. Just as a side note, Muencheberg's 118. was claimed on 27.Nov. 1942

Someone asked about sources. The usual combinations: Quartermaster General's loss reports, A.D.I.(k) report [descriptive Brit. reports on captured airframes], Prien's listing of abandoned/lost Bf 109 airframes in the Mediterranean area, photographs. When one looks through our db for an obscure location, it's always more than likely that other aircraft were reported at the same place (that's where the Arco Philanorum ID came from, but I didn't happen to write down on today's scrap paper note which satellite field location was listed originally -- sorry, didn't think of it)

=+=+=+=

On to "not Rudel" in the Ju 87B/R "T6+AD" John Beaman's referral to "Hein" Bruecker is correct, if you're looking at a machine during the Balkans campaign or earlier. During the onset of the Russian campaign, when Rudel began flying Stuka combat missions (not earlier -- he wasn't yet considered 'reliable' by his Kommodore at the time, "Onkel Oskar" Dinort), his Gruppenkommandeur was Ernst-Siegfried Steen. It's Steen's aircraft that is most-commonly mis-identified as Rudel's. Rudel was at this time the III. Gruppen Technical Officer. Steen was KIA 23.September 1941. After taxiing his 'own' T6+AD into a pothole, he appropriated Rudel's T6+CD, together with Rudel's radio operator Alfred Scharnowski, for what turned out to be his fatal flight, returning to Kronstadt to attack Soviet capital ships.

Rudel did not succeed Steen as Gruppenkommandeur. Gustav Pressler was posted in from St.G.77 and became Kommandeur of III/St.G. 2 (Indeed, ANOTHER T6+AD, a winter-camouflaged Ju 87D-1, is another mis-identified machine; Pressler not Rudel). Rudel became Staffelkpaitaen of the 1./St.G. 2. He did not become III/St.G. 2 Kommandeur until 1943. The photo of him waiting for takeoff in his Ju 87D-5 has been widely reprinted, so you may be familiar with that one. His usual backseater was Erwin Hentschel.

Sorry this is so long; hope it clarified rather than further clouded the waters, GRM