Time over target ~ Peernemunde August 1943

[Smith]

Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner

EE147. Airborne 2155 17Aug43 from woodhall Spa.

Silly me ... I see you've told us this Adriano, many thanks.

So does anyone know, or can find out what the target ETA would have been for this aircraft? Is it reasonable logic to assert (on this easy night for navigation, moonlit, calm conditions, etc, etc) that, by referencing other aircraft take off times (from Woodhall Spa or elsewhere) and bombing times we could get a "probable" time over target for EE147?

I'm fully aware we'd only be using best estimates, and of course we'll never know if for example they went around again or anything like that.

Thanks, Don

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hello Gnome!
You added quite a lot of NEW data!
The fact that the bodies were recovered and given a burial is of interest. Also quite amazing the fact that you found that the body of the Lancaster crashed almost over Peenemunde - not on the sea.
I will try to have a good look at all the claims to discuss with you later. By the way, could you scann for me the Flight Plan? I could calculate for you the ETA over Peenemunde ( will try to get the winds data to calculate it properly ).
But the main problem is that we do not know IF the German combat claims were so precise. There are - as you will see - so many claims OVER Peenemunde itself...without any other clues. And we can imagine that it take some minutes for a Lancaster to fall down from 8,000 or more feets!
I am sure we can find the victor, checking and re-checking ALL that claims...I will have a careful look at them and try to help you.

Sincerely yours

Adriano

[Smith]

Adriano ... I don't have the flight plan and don't know how to get one (from here in New Zealand anyway). I wonder if anyone can suggest how we get hold of a copy? Thanks Don

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hi Gnome.
I got a map of the Area, although not so detailed as I wanted. Yes, there are a lot of claims that we can discard - too far away to the West, or over the Sea, or to the South.
But, there many claims over Peenemunde without any other clear indication...and that will be our problem!
From the site bomberslost ( I passed you on a previous reply ) 619 Squadron lost only 3 Lancasters and that of your uncle was the last one to take off!
Did you find the book of Middlebrook? We could have an idea of the flight made by the heavies that night. For example: if the first leg was direct to somewhere over Denmark; the second leg apparently crossed the Baltic from W to East almost directly to Peenemunde. This way we can "guesstimate" the actual ( or most probable time ) of your uncle´s Lanc over the target.
What seems strange on this story is that he and his crew were buried in Poland. If they crashed 200 m from the center of Peenemunde, why did the Germans buried them so far away?
And there are many considerations: Like I told you, depending of how badly damaged a Lancaster was he could fly for some time until crashing...
But gladly for "our" research, most of bombers were shot down around 2,000-3,000 meters this night.
I looked all the claims and like you - started to eliminate some candidates. But there are so many Luftwaffe pilots that claimed victories over Peenemunde that we would have to calculate the ETO to have an idea - or check with 619 Squadron survivors their times over the target. So, for example, an aircraft that took off at 21:45 arrived over Peenemunde at 00:55hs - your uncle should have arrived around 01:05hs...
I will keep in touch...Have you got contacts with other 619 Squad veterans? Is there a 619 Squadron Association? Maybe 619 Squadron ORB at the Public Record Office at Kew ( UK )?
I´ll be waiting more news from you.
Yours as ever
Adriano

[Smith]

Many thanks Adriano ... just a quick reply, it's a beautiful Autumn Sunday morning here and we're going out to enjoy it.

Mark Simpson also made the observation re. the burial. They were re-interred in Poland after the war's end. At the time they (actually 3 heads and one hand, all the bits that were found!) were buried in the local military cemetery at Swinemunde - as I suspect others from this raid were.

One thing I have learned over time is that Lancasters were a death trap. Night fighters would hit them in the fuel tanks between the engines and the resultant blaze would literally melt the skin of the wing. The aircraft would fly for up to as much as a minute (sometimes the effect was more immediate, eg. control cables severed or severe damage of some form) and then roll and dive as the wing gave up. This particular aircraft (EE147) was seen to dive vertically into the ground. At an accelerating dive up to say 200km/h (vertical) the fall from 1500/2000 metres would have taken 30-45 seconds.

And I do have Middlebrook's book now (on loan from the library) and it does have a picture of the course track. But it's not necessarily to scale or reliable enough in my opinion.

It's interesting your point re. EE-147 being last up. Do you have such a timing and list? That would be valuable as there is a quote in Middlebrook's book about a combat another 619 aircraft had over the target. The likely German counterpart is known for that one. It may be that EE-147 arrived on the scene after that!

In fact I wonder - is it possible to obtain and read debriefing reports of RAF squadrons? And nachtjagd combat reports?

Many thanks, regards Don