Fighter pilots' guts

Originally Posted by Six Nifty .50s

Regarding the courage of French pilots, I don't know why you are fixated on the opinion of Peter Townsend.

- Simply because he libelled the 1940 - stress 1940, nineteen forty - French pilots, or rather those who fought in May-June 1940 but did not escape to England. To him the Free-French pilots were all right, as if there COULD be any difference. In most cases only chance or luck, or bad luck, decided upon who became a "Free-French" or not, except of course the vast majority who clearly had decided never to join the Britishers after the Mers el-Kébir attack, the British "Pearl Harbor". You know how US people feel about the Japanese after PH. Why on earth should precisely the French have a different reaction!
But Townsend is not the only one, there are others. I won't enhance their glory so I won't give their names here.
After the November 1942 Allied landings in French North Africa - where the Mers el-Kébir attack had taken place - almost all French airmen came under AMERICAN not British command. There was a good reason for this. I am convinced that they bluntly would have refused to fly and fight within the RAF, they'd preferred to become infantrymen with the French Army (which later, by the way, cracked the Cassino nut). They flew almost exclusively US aircraft types. There were some exceptions like commandant (sqn leader or major) Jean Accart, who eventually 1944 led a French Spitfire squadron based in England after he had created it. Accart no doubt was one of the best, most clever and finest fighter pilots and leaders in the world, perhaps THE best one in the world. 1940 he had won 12 confirmed victories in 3 weeks (!), his escadrille of 12 fighters was the by very far top-scoring one of the whole Armée de l'Air , which comprised about 53 escadrilles (thanks to his unique leadership and the exceptional training he had given his pilots). After these 3 weeks of fighting he received a German machine-gun bullet exactly between his eyes when once more attacking a He 111 under unfavourable conditions. He baled out and suffered many other very heavy wounds, survived by sheer luck and... crossed the Pyrénées into Spain as soon as he was able to, together with several of his student pilots, in order to fight again! With all his wounds nobody would have expected him to fight again - the bullet was still there between his eyes for they never dared try to extract it. He, too, was one of those 1940 French fighter pilots insulted by Townsend.
If only they had allowed him to meet the Luftwaffe he would have wreaked havoc in it. This is precisely what RAF's to brass did NOT want and the whole unit hardly got any opportunity to fight German aircraft. This was general Allied tactics : French fighters were NOT allowed to meet the Luftwaffe, Allied HQ did not want them to win any victories, or only a few by pure luck (except the French Normandie-Niémen wing in Russia, for the Russians didn't care about British psychological problems with the French and never prevented them from winning some 283 victories (or so) at a very high cost). Of course this behaviour was not only unfair, it was also idiotic and criminal towards US bomber crews, for many of them were killed BECAUSE the French, in particular Accart's crack squadron, were not allowed to fight the Luftwaffe. This probably cost the lives of a few hundred US bomber crew members even though US fighter pilots were not bad at all and did an excellent job. Accart and his pilots no doubt would have been even better.

Instead Accart's squadron, which was like a fine sword, was used for bombing and ground attack, at a high cost too. This was like using this fine sword for chopping stone slabs : not really clever. Many other RAF squadrons were doing the same job but they were not the Accart squadron, which comprised at least one more 1940 top-ace : Vuillemain, 9 confirmed victories 1940, one "Wellington" in August 1942 (after 3 July 1940 any British aircraft or vessel near French Africa was attacked by the "cowards", reluctantly by most of them for they didn't forget that the main enemy was Germany, England was only 2nd) and one Ju 88 in September 1943. So he was one of the very few French fighter pilots who - purely by chance - had the opportunity to shoot down a German aircraft after 1940... Of course this remark doesn't apply to the Free-French pilots flying with the RAF. They were given the possibility to get involved in air combat.

Thanks for your posting anyway. Yes Maridor's story is interesting and moving. You know, I simply think he had no choice in this situation actually. Of course what he did was a heroic deed but what else could he do? Can you imagine ANY fighter pilot giving up and flying away?

In another thread (« Fighter pilots chicken? ») Alex Smart remarked that « the ONLY French Air Unit to evacuate to the UK from Europe (so once more we see the UK is not in Europe !) was one of the Polish manned units within the French AF ». How naive can you be ?

Sure, I don’t really know (yet), I only know that all Czechs and Poles who so wished – they all did I think – were offered the possibility of sailing, sometimes flying, to England, but this unit A.S. mentioned went to England without its aircraft : they didn’t have the range to fly. As I already mentioned, the French not only did not prevent them from going to England, they helped them as best they could, which was a good thing. They could have closed all borders and harbours…

Fleeing to England was not made easier by the fact that the German invasion of the French territory started in the extreme North (Dunkerque, Arras, Calais, etc.), where the British army had been, and continued south- and westwards, so that all French forces which were not captured or destroyed retreated in the same directions, mainly southwestwards, towards central France and the Atlantic coast near Spain and the Pyrénées (including in the East on the Mediterrenean coast : Perpignan). It was out of the question to fly fighters to England before the end of June for the fighting was going on, French fighters (and AA) flying under orders in organised units were still demolishing a lot of German aircraft and airmen so there was no reason to leave, and it would have been desertion – to an allied country (or was it an allied country?) but nevertheless desertion. Nobody is allowed to leave his unit during the fighting. In any case no French pilot would have dreamed of doing that BEFORE June 17, when Pétain made his disastrous and terrible speech on the radio (« I am telling you that we must cease fighting » - the Germans took more prisoners after that (in 8 days) than before (in 38 days). He was irresponsible for he didn’t mean « cease immediately », he was meaning « after an agreement with Germany » but almost everybody understood the contrary, and marshal Pétain was the by very far most prestigious, most glorious living Frenchman at the time. Stress « at the time »! I strongly resent what he did afterwards, including NOT really retaliating for the Mers el-Kébir aggression : only a few dozen French bombers dropped bombs on Gibraltar, many of them missing purposely. Pétain could at least have had a few British naval ships sunk by the French fleet, which possessed some very fast battleships, including the brand-new Richelieu, and cruisers, not to mention 60 excellent submarines (much more than Germany possessed 1940).

Those French fighter pilots who wanted to escape to England after 17 June couldn’t simply fly their fighters northwards, they didn’t have the range. Many (several hundred) were in North Africa already. Besides, their own units and COs still existed and they had no real, urgent reason to go to England. It is not really simple to leave your country, your family, your units and your brothers in arms, not even knowing if it is the right thing to do. The situation of Poland at the end of September 1939 was entirely different, there is no comparison.

[Christer Bergström]

One implied recognition of the French airmen of 1940 can be found in a diary note by Hannes Trautloft (JG 54's commander). When the Soviet fighter pilots in March 1942 started to get better and adopted better tactics, Trautloft's conclusion was:

"We have the impression that French pilots are flying with the Russians now. In the last days we have noticed a completely new tactic adopted by the enemy fighters. . . . And [they] have also grown more aggressive". (Quoted in "Black Cross/Red Star", Vol. 2, p. 94.)

(This was one year before the first French fighter pilots appeared on the Eastern Front.)

Taking the very strong opposition they were up against, the accomplishment of the French Normandie-Niemen fighter regiment really is impressive. All their victories were achieved in an environment where the cream of the Luftwaffe veterans operated. I can imagine the rate of destruction the Normandie-Niemen veterans could have caused if they would have been set loose against the rookies in the Luftwaffe's "Western" fighter units.

[Ruy Horta]

Peter Townsend
Duel of Eagles
Presidio Press, 1991

p.237
Operation Paula was a concerted blow at the airfields and aircraft factories in the Paris region. It was also meant to impress the French public. II KG 2 (Werner Borner was with them in Gustav Marie) bombed Orly. 'The very few French fighters we met,' he said, 'fought bravely.'

It happened that Air Vice Marshal Sholto Douglas and Admiral Sir Geoffrey Blake landed at Villacoublay on a visit to Admiral Darlan and General Vuillemin, Chief of Air Staff. 'We rather expected that there would at least be someone there to welcome us...' said Sholto Douglas. As they got out of the aircraft '...a little man wearing a tin hat with a gas mask bouncing on his backside....shouted at us to take cover.'
Sholto, who had not forgotten the night he dived under the piano at Bertangles, needed no encouragement. He and Admiral Blake bolted for the nearest shelter, 'a not very reassuring mound of sandbags and corrugated iron ...' A second later Luftwaffe bombs were plastering Villacoublay's airfield and hangars.
Sholto had seen three French fighters take off. Of the fifty others parked around the airfield many were blown to smithereens. Sholto wondered why the French fighters did not hurl themselves at the enemy. The British Air Staff had warned the French the day before of Operation Paula.
He entered the mess with Admiral Blake. There they found the French pilots 'sitting down quietly having their lunch ... They were not at all interested in what had just happened.' His thoughts went back to the French aces of his day, Fonck and Guynemer and their generation. It was not until later, 'when I had free French pilots under my command that I found ... Frenchmen who could be as keen and gallant...'

Here are some further quotes from Townsend.

P.208
On 10 May the Franco-British air Forces in France were pitifully inadequate against this mighty host...(n)ot even the supreme and selfless gallantry displayed by the allied airmen could make up for such mediocre equipment and meagre numbers.

p.215
With disaster now staring them in the face the French High Command called their own and the British bomber forces to make a supreme effort on 14 May against the German bridgehead at Sedan ... (s)oon after noon the few remaining French bombers went in. Their losses were so terrible that further attacks were cancelled.

p.222
Gamelin lamented the French inferiority in the air and pleaded for more RAF squadrons, above all fighter squadrons. Among other things, these were needed, he said to stop enemy tanks. (The Généralissime must have been out of his senses. How could fighters with rifle-calibre machine-guns stop tanks?) Churchill reminded him that the fighter's business was to 'cleanse the skies' above the battle.*

p.233
Meanwhile forty thousand Frenchmen were fighting doggedly alongside the British, holding the Germans at bay on Dunkirk's perimeter. Loyal allies, the British and French fought valiantly while their comrades were carried to safety in the Navy's ships...

(*Included to demonstrate the lack of support for tactical air support demonstrated by the RAF in the first half of the war, looking at air power in terms of (pre-war) orthodox doctrine. Terraine touches the subject again, with his coverage of the brief Greek campaign. Of course fighter interdiction can be a very effective weapon against tanks, perhaps not directly, but against the support train - fuel trucks etc. The roads were packed with German transports, Hurricanes would certainly have been more effective in ground support and strafing than Battles. But this really is a different subject.)

[Ruy Horta]

Ah, I forgot to add an interesting quote from Paul Richey, who wrote the following on page 87 of this classic book Fighter Pilot:

The French CO was a tall, hard-looking man, bursting with efficiency and quite undisturbed by the numerous delayed action bombs scattered around the airfield. 'Oh, those!' he said contemptuously, they've been going off all night. One gets used to anything in time...'

Seen against this light, perhaps old Sholto Douglas was misinterpreting French cool nonchalance for inaction?

Main thing I'm trying to explain is that if there is any critique, it should be of Sholto Douglas, however to say that he had no right to judge or have an opinion on what he'd witnessed, as a senior officer, is not fair nor realistic.

Thanks Ruy for both postings.

Quote :
<< Main thing I'm trying to explain is that if there is any critique, it should be of Sholto Douglas, however to say that he had no right to judge or have an opinion on what he'd witnessed, as a senior officer, is not fair nor realistic.>>

Yes but Townsend did all the harm when he PUBLISHED his book, which was quite successful in the whole world and published in French too. Both the English and the French edition were published in... France. Incredible isn't it. I insist that his whole story must be forged - until I'm PROVEN wrong. No fighter unit what stationed at Villacoublay on 3 June 1940, this is a fact. Some fighter units were based there for short periods of time but NOT on this day. Villa is too close to the central target area : Paris. About 250 fighters were concentrated around Paris, a few dozen miles away (20-30 km or more) : at Chantilly, Lognes etc. This airfield (Villa) was used mainly for flight-testing new series aircraft produced by nearby factories, Breguet 693s and LeO 451s I think (no warranty). Besides, the French were informed of the German attack well in advance, much earlier than one day before, but French HQ were such fools that they spoilt everything and they had probably no advantage at all, rather disadvantages, from this knowledge. It cost the lives of about 8 good fighter pilots too many. In any case, this top conference either was not on 3 June or not at Villacoublay, or it never existed. It could - could! - rather have taken place at Dunkerque, but earlier, or even in Paris, for clearly it involved both the Air Forces and the Navies of both countries so the obvious guess is the Dunkerque evacuation. If this is correct it must have been much earlier than that.

Perhaps I can explain the error about "pilots". As you know RAF pilots (proudly) wear their "wings" on their battle-dress. They are made of some textile material. In the French AF EVERY MAN wears similar wings on his battle-dress, even the lowest ranks (ordinary soldiers). I ought to know : I was such an ordinary soldier (deuxième classe) before I became an officer. I forgot what you call them in the RAF. The colour of these wings is gold for officers and NCOs, orange below the rank of sergent. All this has nothing special to do with pilots but it is not surprising that a foreign general mistook the French wings for pilots' insignia.

The French pilot badge, exactly like the German one, is made of metal and is comprised of two horizontal wings inside a circle of laurel leaves, with a golden star which every member of the flying personnel wears.

Anyway nobody has the right to draw such drastic conclusions, on a foreign airfield, about a situation which he has no chance to understand if nobody explains it for him.

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by Hawk-Eye

Yes but Townsend did all the harm when he PUBLISHED his book, which was quite successful in the whole world and published in French too. Both the English and the French edition were published in... France. Incredible isn't it. I insist that his whole story must be forged - until I'm PROVEN wrong. No fighter unit what stationed at Villacoublay on 3 June 1940, this is a fact. Some fighter units were based there for short periods of time but NOT on this day.

You know the general subject interests me, so please keep in mind I am not trying to discredit the french fighter pilots of '39-40. But the above statement does show some double standards, especially if set against what you've written in the Graf/Closterman and the all yellow Fw 190 thread. So your opinion of French pilots is more important than an eyewitness account of a British AVM? Of course you could write page upon page of french accomplishments, but that does not automatically discount this account. The same thread covers the theme of slander, but in this case both Townsend and Sholto Douglas are being described as liars and forgers. Unfortunately you are using a double standard.

Originally Posted by Hawk-Eye

I know I believed certain things on MY OWN LIFE which were wrong, as I discovered later. I didn't lie, I just was wrong. For example I would have sworn that I was on a certain airfield and did a certain thing but in fact it was another airfield (as my logbook proves). My memory betrayed me. Such things will happen.

So it may have been another field, but who's to say that on that field there were not a number of (fighter) pilots who acted as witnessed by Sholto Douglas? Maybe Sholto Douglas was wrong in some of his account, does that make him or Townsend forgers and liars?

Originally Posted by Hawk-Eye

Perhaps I can explain the error about "pilots". As you know RAF pilots (proudly) wear their "wings" on their battle-dress. They are made of some textile material. In the French AF EVERY MAN wears similar wings on his battle-dress, even the lowest ranks (ordinary soldiers).

Anyway nobody has the right to draw such drastic conclusions, on a foreign airfield, about a situation which he has no chance to understand if nobody explains it for him.

Again, this is not personal attack, which is the last thing on my mind Yves, just looking at the case, which you yourself have been presenting on numerous occasions, on its own merit. But here you set an annecodotal episode of a book against what amounts to nothing but an assumption, one that also assumes that AVM Sholto Douglas doesn't know the difference between an ordinary airman and a pilot, albeit a frenchman. Perhaps you assume that this AVM also saluted to the local janitor because like all french generals he had such a beautiful moustage?

The main point you fail to put into proper perspective is that Sholto Douglas (or Townsend by quoting) is decribing an event as he witnessed, and as AVM RAF he deserves the same credence or perhaps more than all those other personalities - like Closterman - we are so fond of. His authority is his senior rank and background as a WW1 fighter pilot of some repute.

Bottom line remains that Sholto Douglas is a reputable witness, if his observations do not agree with your sense of what's right and what's wrong, it is time to double check the facts, not attack the person. Since I am very particular (and peculiar) about this sort of thing I couldn't help but order a copy of Years of Command: A personal story of the second war in the Air (Collins, 1966), to check this episode myself.

There may be mistakes, but if we don't like what we read it doesn't mean we are also looking at lies and forgeries. One question, did you ever double check Sholto Douglas' biography?

Again, is it really impossible that AVM Douglas saw a number of nonchalant french pilots that did not jump to "their" airplanes, during an air attack, keeping in mind the aggressive nature of this senior officer? Also with his background in mind is it really surprising if he looked favorably upon the free-french under his command, compared to what he saw in those darker days of 1940?

Instead of considering lies and forgeries, I'd be more inclined to believe that there were indeed moments when élan was not as high as usual amongst the french, especially through the eyes of a visiting senior officer. Those were days of defeat, not victory...

Back to Townsend, his book covers the campaign in France to a limited extend, but doesn't do so any worse than other titles from an RAF perspective, I wonder how much harm his publication really did. Did French fighter pilots really suffer that much from his publication? As I've tried to point out by quoting Townsend, there are also positive signals that even things out - in my humble opinion.

In the eyes of the British, the French failed by discontinuing the fight, those are pretty harsh terms but set against the summer of 1940 and without the benefit of hindsight, not really surprising. The questionable role of Vichy France doesn't make it easier.

It is obvious that there was resentment between the British and French after the collapse in the west. The men of that generation took (at least some part of) that resentment with them, judging by your writing some of that resentment has been passed to the next generation and still lingers on.

What remains obvious is that something went terribly wrong in the summer of 1940 and for some the explanation needs a scapegoat.

Writing as an enthusiast, not as a moderator.

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by Christer Bergström

those that some seem bent on trying to denounce

1. Who's really denouncing who, on this forum or even in literature?
2. There is actually a lot of irrelevant material in this thread.

First the idea that French fighter pilots are being slighted wholesale by the world, by the British, by the french, by everyone, except a few honorable men...

nonsense

Second a thread basically dealing with a single book by a single writer, who's occused of anything but canibalism and child molesting, but those are probably lesser crimes

However this book seems to be a reoccuring theme, call it the catalyst, to fuel this ongoing pashionate blaze.

What I don't see is any reasoned argument, I see a lot of irrelevant writing about pre-war france and even the fact that little Holland was attacked by Germans in dutch uniforms, but not a solid thing about why Sholto Douglas is unequivocaly wrong, or proof that Townsend misinterpreted his annecdote.

The accusation is one of forgery and lies, should these statements not be backed up some relevant facts?

This post is not a personal attack against anyone.

I do not remember reading about french traitors, cowards and murderers, about french forgers and liars etc etc etc. But every now and then this AA vs RAF theme pops up and these words fly...towards the British that is.

So I'll ask all of you a question.

Why should I allow this thread to continue?
Should I allow this discussion ever to raise its head again?

If not with reason and objectively, not at all.

Stand by please! I am working on my reply to your preceding posting, which is quite long. It takes time because I am reading YOUR text carefully and writing my replies carefully too. You'll see you're too heated and too quick in your conclusions.

Remember : censorship can't prevent the facts from existing, on the contrary, they make them more interesting and attractive.

I don't know why you sound so angry now. I don't think anybody attacked YOU or your statements. I suspect you read other postings too fast, too hastily, and then you draw some wrong conclusions. Or is it forbidden even to criticise anything British? I know relationships between UK and NL are very tight. I feel up till now this was a gentlemanly discussion even if I used the word "liar", which I can prove is justified. I was called quite other names at TOCH some years ago, including some of the worst English words, which you neither forbade nor deleted for a long time (and Christer recently was called names too, including "liar", which you didn't delete IIRC).

Let us calm down and keep a cool head. Are you as quick-tempered as your Brazilian fellow-countryman Coronel Pierre Clostermann? In any case I am not your enemy either, I just want to discuss this matter thoroughly and completely. No reason to explode. After all the insultees are THE FRENCH as usual. Remember what the UK-US press wrote when Bush's 2nd Irak-war started and the French (like the Russians, the Germans and many other countries on top of the UNO) disagreed. They were traitors, cowards etc. as usual, the French President was a "worm". Well, what do you say now (the Irak problem is not solved yet)? Who was right? Was it soooo terrible to have said "no"?

Same thing here : please have a little patience, wait a little, it won't kill you. I happen to have a few other concerns and business to attend.