Me 262 should have been used as a bomber?

[Franek Grabowski]

Richard, I have just dig out an article about PR.XIXs (look out for Ventura booklets! Merlins are in print, so I suppose Griffons will be forthcoming) and it provides 718 km/h at 7,9 km. Ceiling was 14,9 km. What is important is a comment that operating on between 640 km/h at 10,5 km and 595 km/h at 12,2 km allowed to keep safe distance from German jets. Now, have a look on MiG-15 performances.

[RT]

Without any doubt the spit couldn't compare with the 262, not same category, seems that even not comparable to the TA152 which was designed for high altitudes, quite normal at that time the spit was a 10 years old design, has the spit XIX larger wings than her predecessors ??

Rémi

[Franek Grabowski]

Remi, read it again, the first aircraft able to intercept Spitfire XIX was MiG-15. The wing was identical as in Mk I.

[Roger Gaemperle]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Roger, you can find various data over the internet, but it cannot change the fact, early jets had poor altitude performance.

Franek,

The data I provided was from a source document from 2nd World War (Messerschmitt test report from fall 1944) and not from the internet. And this source document I consider as fact but not a general statement like early jets had poor altitude performance.

Roger Gaemperle

[Juha]

Richard
thanks for the Me 262 data!

Juha

[Franek Grabowski]

Roger, I meant Spitfire performance. Regarding jets, it is a common knowledge their poor altitude performance. MiG-15, which was an another generation jet aircraft, had a ceiling, IIRC, 15,5 km. Compare it to almost 15 km of Spitfire XIX.

[RT]

Franek you are right, no russian aircraft could catch the XIX, I checked for the TA152, a bit just also, comparable performance even slightly better in speed but not enought to catch it, an other candidate in the western corner, now that there is no more allies ???

How was the griffon overfeeded ? Turbo ? usual compressor ??

We hv also to tell that the brits, hv been, as usual very fairplay, because the Mig15 use a british engine or...

Rémi

[Roger Gaemperle]

Franek,

I am no Spitfire expert and had no other source than a websearch. For the Me 262 I had source material (which I can post if anybody is interested). So, if you don't recommend a websearch, I am sure you have source material (official Supermarine documents) for the Spitfire and could present this to this board. A speed comparison would also be interesting.

To me the speed and maximum ceiling of the Me 262 stated in the document I and Richard mentioned don't look like poor performance. So this is hard fact against "common knowledge". And "common knowledge" doesn't proof that the Me 262 was not able to fly as high as the Spitfire if the technical facts tell a different story.

I don't want to be small minded since even if the Me 262 could have catched the Spitfire, the result of the war and of the Me 262s benefits and shortcomings would not be different. But just as a matter of curiosity I would like to find out based on hard technical facts what is true and what is not.

By the way: obviously an unarmed Spitfire could not prevent Ar 234 to fly recon missions even over England. So, regarding reconnaissance it was a 1:1 for the Luftwaffe vs. RAF (except for the inbalance of number of aircraft employed).

Regards
Roger Gaemperle

[Six Nifty .50s]

Originally Posted by Roger Gaemperle

Franek,

To me the speed and maximum ceiling of the Me 262 stated in the document I and Richard mentioned don't look like poor performance. So this is hard fact against "common knowledge".

One report does not tell us anything about reliability in service. My impression is that Jumo jets had chronic troubles at high altitude and that little improvement was made before the war ended. For the same reason it was difficult for Me 262 pilots to fly in formations above 30,000 feet because the engines tended to flame out with changes in throttle settings. Obviously, any inability to operate as a team was another limit to success.

All this was well known to Me 262 pilots and their superiors. After a flyer from JG 7 claimed three Mosquitos (flying at heights not identified by the unit historian) Hermann Goering was apparently sceptical when he joked that it was a phenomenal achievement for a plane with engines that stop above 6,000 meters and self-destruct at speeds above 750 km/hr.

I'm not suggesting that you should dismiss test pilot reports, be they German, British or American. But don't get too comfortable with paper figures because experience in combat holds more weight.

[Graham Boak]

Roger: can you identify Ar 234 flights over England? I know of none. The aircraft lacked the range for any significant penetration. I know of a handful of Ar 240 flights in March 1944 where the pilot infiltrated returning US bomber streams, but the number of such flights and the depth of penetration was limited. The Ar 234 was used in Italy and for missions behind Allied lines in France/Belgium, but was not invulnerable then. The Ju 88, in different variants, was used for limited coastal missions away from the main combat areas.

However, even if more did exist, they were only a few in comparison. The Allies, with mainly Spitfires, Mosquitoes and Lightnings, carried out continuous missions over Germany and the occupied territories. The Germans, who started with an excellent reconnaissance setup, had nothing to match this coverage after the first years of the war.

This is a long way from 1 to 1.