From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Before that, let's remember that on the Southern Front there were no Yak-1s, Il-2s or Yer-2s at the start of Operation Barbarossa.

I put my 2 cents to this topic.
Of course Il-2 were not on 22 VI 1941, the 4. SzAP was send on Western Front in the end of June 41. Anyway during the battle for Odessa there were separate assoult unit equipted with Il-2.
Soviet used them - Il-2s - as a "fire brigade", so you should also mentioned this particular small thing in your book (?).
Karlenko, if I am right, is well aware about this topics too.

Yer-2 was a long distance bomber introduced into combat unit in July/August 1941. Firs use during night attak on Berlin in August 1941 ( a few planes)
Such planes (Yer-2) were never used as a "army or frontal bombers" It was high comand reserve - Stalin.
Anyway for example in 55. IAP you have from the begining MiG-3, which was very modern in June 1941.
Secon Su-2 was quite good "assoult-dive" plane, ane there were a few regiment with this bomber.

Romanian P.11, P.24, or He 112, or Hurricane I were not so "factory fresh" like this Soviet fighters. The same was with bombers like P.23 or Blenheims or P.37 and Soviet SB with M-103 engines ect.


Regards
Mirek Wawrzynski,
an author, for example, "Hurricane over Constanca and Odessa" from 2006.

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski

Of course Il-2 were not on 22 VI 1941, the 4. SzAP was send on Western Front in the end of June 41. Anyway during the battle for Odessa there were separate assoult unit equipted with Il-2.
Soviet used them - Il-2s - as a "fire brigade", so you should also mentioned this particular small thing in your book (?).

Actually, the Il-2 was first introduced in combat on the Southern Front on 17 July, with 232 ShAP.

For the details, I recommand you to read the book.

[Dénes Bernád]

Any opinions by those who have read the book?

P.S. Currently working hard on vol. 2...

[Jens]

Hi there,

i am currently reading.

My impression: the book is more than worthy for its price.

It's quite detailed in describing air combats and their results.
Especially the informations about air actions of VVS and ARR are interesting (and quite new i think).
Also the photos are well in quantity and quality.

Some critics i have to add too;

- the book has a very little focus at ground operations, which are very important (IMHO) to unterstand air operations at the eastern front. Both were very close connected.

- why there is not a word about the claims of Pokryshkin in the first days? (see also BC/RS Vol.1), or i didn't see it?

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by Jens

Hi there,

i am currently reading.

My impression: the book is more than worthy for its price.

It's quite detailed in describing air combats and their results.
Especially the informations about air actions of VVS and ARR are interesting (and quite new i think).
Also the photos are well in quantity and quality.

Some critics i have to add too;

- the book has a very little focus at ground operations, which are very important (IMHO) to unterstand air operations at the eastern front. Both were very close connected.

- why there is not a word about the claims of Pokryshkin in the first days? (see also BC/RS Vol.1), or i didn't see it?

Thanks, Jens, for your kind opinion.

As for the critics, details on ground operations were not largely included in the text simply because of lack of printing space (although, there is a fairly detailed introduction, which explains the military and political situation back then, and how did this situation end up as it did). The page number was originally set by the Publisher to 96, which the Publisher did not want to change. Even so, the Editor managed somehow to squeeze in 93,000 words, instead of the recommended 50,000 (hence the small font size).

As for Pokryshkin's claims from the first days of war, based on his memoirs, if they are not included in our book, it simply means that no trace of these claims could be found in the archives. We did mention the name of St. Lt. Pokryshkin, though...

[Jens]

I see,

Bergstrom indicated that Fw. Köhler of JG-77 was maybe shoot down by Pokryshkin on 24.6.41 , but the book "odessa" stated it was due AAA.

So i think your info is more concret and so maybe right?

PS: Bergstrom also stated that documents of 55. IAP seems to be lost.

[Nokose]

Denes, Should we look at the times listed as Eastern European for the Axis operations and the VVS as Moscow time? The records seem to be incomplete for the VVs losses on the regiment level from what I've read. On the 24Jun41 the VVS ChF raid on Constanza that was intercepted by III/JG52 it seems possible that Friedrich Wachowiak's 1st victory didn't go down. That leaves Gerhard Koeppen claiming 2 and 9 other pilots claiming one each. You indicated that 2MTAP was one of the units which was probably the 3 DB-3F's unit were the 7 SB's from 40SBAP?
Now the "smoking gun question" for the 15Jul41. You have St. Lt. Alexander Pokryshkin 55IAP's MiG-3 listed as crashed in the swamp 3 km N of Grozeshti with no cause. Stab/JG77 Fw Erwin Sawallisch claimed his 7th kill a MiG-3 over Kishinev. I've checked Dr. Prien's JFV 6/II and no one else claiming a MiG-3. Was Pokryshkin shot down by a Bf-109 and how close are these areas?
The book is great and I wait for the 2nd volume.
Michael

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Jens

I see,

Bergstrom indicated that Fw. Köhler of JG-77 was maybe shoot down by Pokryshkin on 24.6.41 , but the book "odessa" stated it was due AAA.

So i think your info is more concret and so maybe right?

PS: Bergstrom also stated that documents of 55. IAP seems to be lost.

Jens, recent Russian research by Mikhail Bykov clearly indicates that Pokryshkin claims cannot be supported by any archival documentation. Most importantly, it does not support thesis of lost papers, as there is everything present for all the remaining airmen of 55 IAP. In another words, all signs on earth indicate Pokryshkin's memoirs are fiction.

[Jim Oxley]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

In another words, all signs on earth indicate Pokryshkin's memoirs are fiction.

Don't you think that's a surprisingly harsh statement? In effect you are calling Pokryshkin a liar.

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Jim Oxley

Don't you think that's a surprisingly harsh statement? In effect you are calling Pokryshkin a liar.

Well, it looks like I do, but all the credit should go to Mikhail Bykov, who get through tons of documents of various levels of Soviet command and verified score of Pokryshkin, providing dates of all known his kills. It turned out Pokryshkin is not second highest scoring Soviet ace, not even a third one, but placing somewhere at the end of the first 10. There is also a history that he has stolen some kills from Rechkalov, so I think it looks indeed very harsh.
All I can say is that FBTO is based on most recent research, and the other book should not be considered reliable, at least in this respect.