Henschel HS-123

[rldunn]

Come on indeed. The data support my previous posts. If the 'right' parts did not get to China that's too bad but the export data clearly shows Germany exported much aviation material to China. China often hoarded supplies rather than using them due to internal rivalries. I don't know if that is the case with the He 111's. They were basically poor early versions of that a/c palmed off on the CAF by the Germans. Please don't use such generalizations when factual data exists that is contrary. You may not know the facts but that is no reason to deny them.

You may wish to research details on exports from Germany to China before making sweeping assertions. I've given you the hints if you are open-minded enough to accept them.

I note you didn't challenge the assertion that Germany remained a major arms supplier in 1939 once I provided some data to that effect. Rest assured similar data exists with regard to aviation supplies. Believe what you will (or do the research yourself!).

Rick

[mars]

rldunn, "open mind" is a two-way street, I would not claim I am an expert of the CAF in WWII, but I indeed "know" something about aircrafts used by CAF in the war, so :
1. I assume "China often hoarded supplies rather than using them due to internal rivalries." was one of your little joke, if it was not, well, I have nothing to say besides suggest you to read some related book written in Chinese.
2.and again, no, neither aicrafts nor any kindo fo aviation material from Germany played any important part in the Sino-Japanese war, even those Hs-123s were soon forced to withdraw from front line because of lack of parts !
3, I may disappointed you here but if you read my previous post, you would see I stated clearly that "Germany was no longer, repeat NO LONGER,a mjor arm supplier to china after 1938, so I DID STILL challenge your assertion, sorry, even after you provided your data.

By the way, I was still interested the fact that Germany still could transport arm to china via Burma after WWII broke out in Europe, this, I really want to know your source.

[mars]

By the way, if you could read chinese, here are two excellent books:
抗日战争时期中国空军的飞机 (Aircrafts used by CAF in the Sino-Japanes War) by 陈应明
浴血长空-中国空军抗日战史(Blood in Sky: Combat history of CAF in the Sino-Japanese War)

[Oldpilot]

I could give you a list what Chinese received from Russia after 1938

I for one would be interested in that information (in broad terms)!

Note that materiel arriving at Rangoon in Sep/Oct 1939 would have been shipped before Britain and Germany were at war. It's an interesting question as to what the British customs officers at the Rangoon docks would have made of it (wouldn't they have impounded the freighter, or was it neutral?)! And just because it arrived is no evidence that it was forwarded up the "road" to Kunming. Was the Burma Road even open in the early fall of 1939?

But really, the British has a motive to let it travel onward--it cost them nothing, put China in their debt, and benefited Germany not at all.

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Coming August 21: Flying Tigers: Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942

[Oldpilot]

Originally Posted by marsyao

hi, what is the difference between this book and the previous " Flying Tigers: Claire Chennault and the American Volunteer Group " ?

Twenty years' worth of additional research!

The 1991 Smithsonian Inst Press edition had some minor corrections in its 2nd printing, and more extensive one in the 7th printing in 2001. But I was very limited as to how many changes I could make (the lines always had to come out the same).

SIP went out of business in 2005, and the last copies of that version were soon sold. So HarperCollins, which acquired the Smithsonian list and name, agreed to publish a revised edition. I spent last year rewriting the book. It's a bit shorter, and much of the "back matter" has been moved onto my website (see the link in my sig file). As a result, HarperCollins achieved the remarkable feat of lowering the price by six dollars over 2001.

It's astonishing how much new information can emerge about happenings of sixty-odd years ago. Rick Dunn of this message board is only one of the resources I didn't have when I began to study the AVG in the 1980s. (Ask him! He's seen the book, and I haven't.)

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Coming August 21: Flying Tigers: Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942

[marsyao]

sure, oldpilot, according to Chinese source, Germany stopped her military supply to China in May 1938, there were some secrect delivery after that, but not in any large scale, Germans certainly did not want to upset Japanese because of Chinese ! Because of combat losses,lack of spare parts for aicraft, and the difficulty of maintianance for ridicously so many different type of aircrafts. CAF almost ran out of combat aicrafts at the end of 1937, now the traditional source of Weapon, Germany and Italy, were stopping their aid, America had not transfered her industry to war time system, British and French had their hands full at Europe, the only help had to come from Soviet, that was a rather bizare relationship, because Soviet supported Chinese Communist in the civil war, the relationship between Russian and Chinese Central goverment was not good, but at that time, Soviet faced Nazi Germany at west, and Japanese at East, they faced a real possibility to fight a two-front war,Russian obviously considered that a Japanes fought in China was a Japanese could not give them trouble to them, so that the help they gave to Chinese at that time was very generous, a 250 million US dollars loan (some other source said 500 Million US dollars loan) in low interest, talking about aircrafts, between end of 1937 to October 1941, Soviet supplied Chinese 900+ aircrafts with large amount of engine, parts,bomber and all kind of areo-ammunition, the first patch of Soviet war planed arrived in China and fought at battle of NanJing in Dec 1937. For further detail, I need go home and check my book

[rldunn]

Dan has pretty much answered the shipping question. The passage from Europe to Rangoon was in excess of 50 days. A ship arriving from Europe at the end of Sept 39 would have set sail in Aug 39 or earlier. The british would have had no reason to interfere with goods bound for China coming into Rangoon on a ship of a neutral country no matter what their origin. The Burma Road was open but it was so inefficiently run that there was a backlog of many months of supplies on the Rangoon docks awaiting shipment up the road to China.

The source of data in my earlier post is customs data for the Port of Rangoon.

With regard to hoarding there are many examples. One brief reference can be found in the comments of Vultee representative Warder in part 4 of this article.

http://www.wardirdforum.com/dunnp661.htm

RLD

[rldunn]

Try

http://warbirdforum.com/dunnp661.htm

sorry, got b and d mixed up

[mars]

Chinese and Soviet began to negociated the Soviet Military aid to China in Sep 1937, among the first request from Chinese included 200 aircrafts, on March 3,1938, China and Soviet signed the first contract, in which Soviet promised to send China 62 SB, 94 I-16, 62 I-15bis, 4 UT-4 and 6 TB-3, all of those aircrafts would be delivered to chinese before Jun 10, actually first patched of Soviet aircrafts (31 I-16 and 31 SB ) with their VVS crews started arived in China on Oct 27,1937, and Soviet fighter pilots flew their first combat sorties on Dec 1 1937 over Capital Nanjing, at the same time, CCF pilots started their conversion to Soviet aircrafts in Nov 1937 and to Spring 1938, CCAF already received 94 I-16, 122 I-15bis, 62 SB and 6 TB-3
In the Second Soviet-China contract, signed on Jun 20 1939, Soviet agreed send to China 24 DB-3, 36 SB, 30 I-15bis,30 I-16, and in later 1939, Soviet again agreed send to china 8 I-15bis, 4 UT-4, 10 SB, 8 R-10 and 8 I-16.
between 1940 to 1941, Chinese again received from Soviet 100 SB, 76 I-153, 65 I-16, 9 I-15bis.
Sum up, until Oct 1941, Chinese received from Soviet: 904 aircrafts (318 bombers, 542 fighters and 44 trainers)

[RCheung]

Hs-123 were operated by the 15th Sq of the ROCAF, mainly in the divebombing role against Japanese shipping on the Yangtze River in 1938. Chinese pilots and ground crew complained that the aircraft showed signs of having been previously used.

First combat involving Soviet Volunteer pilots in the 1st Volunteer Pursuit Group occurred on Nov. 22, 1937 near Nanking. G. M Prokofiev led I-16 to intercept an equal number of A5M from the JNAF 13th Kokutai. Each side lost one aircraft and its pilot. PO3c Kashimura, Kanichi shot down Lt. N N Nezhdanov who was killed. Prokofiev shot down PO3c Miyazaki, Koji who was also killed.