Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E

[Primoz]

A mixture of RLM 66 and 65 would be less bluish than you think. At least much less than Gris Bleu Foncé (or whatever the French color was called).

[Ruy Horta]

Been a while.

Since you mention it Primoz, what are the chances (next to mixing) of using some of the captured French paint stocks in the color experiments of that period?

[GrahamB]

Ruy,

good suggestion. Although several matches for each French camouflage can be found throughout the literature two for Gris Bleu Fonce and Gris Bleu Clair would make a good high altitude camouflage without modification and are really quite close to the photographs in question (good-excellent balance, no chance of dark greens or even, contentiously, neutral greys going blue-grey): FS 5164 and FS 5189 respectively.

Cheers

GrahamB

[Cpt_Farrel]

Originally Posted by Ruy Horta

Been a while.

Since you mention it Primoz, what are the chances (next to mixing) of using some of the captured French paint stocks in the color experiments of that period?

According to Merrick (and maybe Ullmann as well, I can't remember clearly) the chances would be slim. Since aircraft paint is pretty advanced stuff, chemically speaking, they would probably not do things like that when they weren't sure how it would affect previous paints and the airframe itself...

No one has yet mentioned the fact (maybe idea is a better word) that colordescriptions was a bit different back in 1940 than today. Colors weren't as vivid as we're used to, so anything yellower than "off white" for example, would be called yellow. Same thing would probably go for blue or blueish grey. I don't doubt that the machine in question was painted in a blueish grey by the way...

There's one example, again from Merrick, where some Fw190's found in the mediterranean was referred to as blue in reports, but years later, some colorphotos emerged showing the aircraft in standard RLM74/75!

/Anders

[Primoz]

Originally Posted by Cpt_Farrel

There's one example, again from Merrick, where some Fw190's found in the mediterranean was referred to as blue in reports, but years later, some colorphotos emerged showing the aircraft in standard RLM74/75!

Are you referring to a/c actually found on the ground or a/c seen in the air? A grey aircraft seen at a considerable distance will look bluish because the air is slightly bluish (and so is snow; we call pure white "snow white" though snow isn't really white - under certain light conditions it looks light blue). Mountains covered with (green) forests will look blue on a hot summer day.

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by Cpt_Farrel

According to Merrick (and maybe Ullmann as well, I can't remember clearly) the chances would be slim. Since aircraft paint is pretty advanced stuff, chemically speaking, they would probably not do things like that when they weren't sure how it would affect previous paints and the airframe itself...

Hi Anders,

I'm still undecided on this issue regardless of the specialist view.

The Germans used captured material and war booty operationally, if I extend that line of thought to necessity and (limited)logistics chances are that even Luftwaffe painters used the next best thing available to them while they waited for logistics to catch up.

Just a gut feeling, no proof whatsoever.

[Cpt_Farrel]

Primoz: It was aircraft found on the ground so they were examined up close:

Ruy: I didn't think of it when I wrote my last post but Luftwaffe aircraft has been know to wear Italian paint so I guess French wouldn't be impossible either.

[Graham Boak]

It would not surprise me to find out that the LW did use Italian or French paints. There is, after all, the story that one desert 109F (at least) was painted in Middle Stone. However evidence is lacking. Ken Merrick has disowned his original suggestion that early LW aircraft in the desert used Italian paints.

[petewenman]

Gents hi

This is a transcript of the

LOCATIONS OF ENEMY AIRCRAFT BROUGHT DOWN COMPILED FROM INFORMATION RECEIVED DURING THE 24 HOURS ENDED 0600 HOURS …

and the subsequent

CONFIRMATION OF ENEMY AIRCRAFT BROUGHT DOWN

I copied both of these from the actual logs ( Air 22/266) held at the Public Records Office (PRO) in Kew.
The entry for Von Werra, first the location report, and then the follow up crashsite visit report.

21.4
5:9:40
1010
MARDEN (KENT)
(180’ MAIDSTONE 7M)
me109
Pilot Prisoner

21/4
Me.109
Force landed at Love’s Farm, Marden, Kent on 5/9. Markings -+< black outlined in white. Crest: Shield U-shaped, outlined in red, divided into 8 segments coloured black and white. Wing tips and rudder painted white. Camouflage all blue. Fuselage all blue. Spinner divided into alternate black and white sectors. Fitted with DB601A engines made by Mercedes Benz werk nr.10598. Aircraft force landed following fighter action. Condition reported to be very good. Standard armament 2 20mm. cannon and 2 MG17s. No head piece armament for pilot who was taken prisoner. Starboard wing shows many .303 strikes.

There is an interesting article by Paul Lucas in Sept04 issue of Model Aircraft Monthly, in which he looks at this report and others. Suggestions are made that Von Werra's aircraft could have been painted using
Fliegerblaugrau (Airforce Blue-Grey) RAL 840R 7016 (very similar in colour to the Royal Navy's Battleship Grey) which was used for painting Luftwaffe vehicles and equipment, and so likely to have been widely available at that time.
Lucas suggests this paint could have been mixed with white to produce a lighter blue-grey which would enable a splinter scheme to be painted. Also mentioned but stated as unlikley option was RLM 24 Dunkelblau which was normally used for markings.
There is an interesting and attractive set of profiles of Von Werra's aircraft in a blue splinter scheme within the article along with alternative schemes for another 5 Me109s including Perez's which may not have worn the standard schemes of that time.

HTH

Pete

[Cpt_Farrel]

Very interesting! Again though, the colordescription is weird. I mean, even if all the colors were of a blueish tone, when they're three distinctly different colors (as is obvious from the photos) "All Blue" is hardly the best way to describe it.

There's a picture of an Emil in France, in color, that clearly shows a blueish grey camo - the engine cowling has been removed so the engine bearers are visible and the RLM02 there is much greener then the camocolors. In the background there's a trainer aircraft painted all RLM02 and it's also much greener than the 109.

So, grey or blueish grey certainly existed but as I said, these colordescriptions are not really ideal for solving any "mysteries"

Thanks for sharing though!

/Anders