Anton Hackl - 4 February 1943

[Stig Jarlevik]

Nef

Your "Polish" sources seems almost word by word to have been lifted from Fighters over Tunisia by Shores, Ring and Hess
This book is pretty old by now and not 100% reliable since more data has become available later, BUT it is still an excellent start and a trend setter how books should be written.
I think however Shores is wrong when saying that Hackl claimed one B-17 shot down and a probable. IF he did, it is not mentioned in Prien's JG 77 volume III. Instead Prien states that Heinz Bär claimed TWO B-17s. This then makes the total claims of shot down Fortresses the same.

Leo
According to Hess (the American in the trio) the Yanks lost one B-17 and six P-38s that day. Two of these were lost from a "straggling" mission flown by the 82nd FG, who very well could have been dragged into this fight. As usual nothing much is known about their damaged aeroplanes...

As a aside, the number of claims made by the US bomber gunners were in all 24 destroyed, 12 probables and 9 damaged which gives a good indication that this was a tough fight indeed. Many has mocked the gunners of these bombers for their inaccurate claims, but I would like to see anyone on this list crawl into position and have some 50 fighters charging in firing REAL shells and bullets right on YOU and not being scared to h..l ! These overclaims were a clear reaction of the intensity of the fighting, and those guys deserved every claim they could get, true or not.
To go out in a bomber and especially having just to sit there and just take it took real guts and I think every one of us would have chosen fighters instead of bombers (IF we had had any choise that is... )!!

Cheers
Stig

[robert]

Hi,

the American lost B-17 42-5076 from the 301 BG, four P-38 from the 1 FG and two from 82 FG.
BTW I have two B-17 of Baer and one of Olt.Puschmann from the 6/JG51 (at 14.27)!

Regards

Robert

[Leo Etgen]

Hello guys

Many thanks to all who have posted here. I originally posted about Hackl being shot down and received a bevy of information about this particular air battle! Robert is correct, there are two additional claims by Oberleutnant Herbert Puschmann (B-17) and Unteroffizier Hans-Günther Koch (P-38) of 6./JG 51 listed in Wood's claims file. Thus, at least a total of three B-17 bombers and eight P-38 fighters were claimed that day. If one bomber and six fighters were lost then excellent accuracy on the part of the Luftwaffe pilots with the exception of the bomber claims. Many thanks to Stig and Robert for this clarification and their input. Stig, very good and thoughtful observation regarding what the bomber gunners had to go through.

Horrido!

Leo

[Nefiakoff]

Stig,

I do have a big dictance to my sources, which very often – like in this situation – even don’t contain any indication of the bibliography.
That’s why I try to clearly point out which data should be verified.
However, I’m always glad to be somehow helpful.
Thank You for observation.

Best regards

Nef

[NickM]

Originally Posted by Leo Etgen

Hello guys

Many thanks to all who have posted here. I originally posted about Hackl being shot down and received a bevy of information about this particular air battle! Robert is correct, there are two additional claims by Oberleutnant Herbert Puschmann (B-17) and Unteroffizier Hans-Günther Koch (P-38) of 6./JG 51 listed in Wood's claims file. Thus, at least a total of three B-17 bombers and eight P-38 fighters were claimed that day. If one bomber and six fighters were lost then excellent accuracy on the part of the Luftwaffe pilots with the exception of the bomber claims. Many thanks to Stig and Robert for this clarification and their input. Stig, very good and thoughtful observation regarding what the bomber gunners had to go through.

Horrido!

Leo

Well, Leo the vexing problem RE: 4 engine bombers claims has always been sorting out the claims being made by multiple units against the same bomber formation-or even different pilots from the same unit claiming the same bomber-especially given the ruggedness of a B17;

NM