Confusing late-war "Gustav"

[Jochen Prien]

Dear Jean-Yves,
Gentlemen,

as I have said before, it is for the time being an assumption - an educated guess - to allocate this a/c to III./JG 300. The reasons for this are:

1) The blue-/white/blue Reichsverteidigungsband makes this an a/c of JG 300; all other combinations can be ruled out, JG 2 never having taken on stength any Bf 109 G-10 and JG 51 havin completely different markings around this time, being employed on the Eastern front.

2) I know of four a/c with the blue/white/blue band and a short black horizontal bar, which are " black 1 ", " black 4 " ( 150 816 ), " yellow 1 " and " blue 12 " ( 152 027 ). They are all Bf 109 G-10 of the last production batch of Erla Leipzig which were delivered between January and March 1945. In this WerkNr. range there are a lot of a/c from III./JG 300.

3) The numerals of all four a/c match only with the III./JG 300 - black with white outline, yellow with black outline and blue with white outline, while white is still missing. Neither I. nor IV./JG 300 followed this pattern.

4) III./JG 300 was disbanded only at the end of the war so that it seems highly unlikely that the Gruppe had to hand over its brand new Bf 109 G-10 to other units before that; there is no evidence or even hint at all that such a thing happened.

5) At least three of the four a/c here were found by advancing allied troops in the centre of Germany where they were left behind damaged, presumably during the retreat of III./JG 300 to Bavaria in early April 1945.

So, that is how I arrived - for tthe time being - at the conclusion, that these four a/c may have belonged to III./JG 300.

Your opinion ?

Cheers

Jochen Prien

[Nick Beale]

I don't know if this list of 25 March 1945 of aircraft assigned to III./JG 300 from Erla-Leipzig is of any help in this discussion.

(the image of the document is cut into two, with a slight overlap, to comply with the forum's upload limits).

File reference: National Archives HW5/692

[FalkeEins]

Originally Posted by Jochen Prien

So, that is how I arrived - for tthe time being - at the conclusion, that these four a/c may have belonged to III./JG 300.
Your opinion ?

your 'highly likely' is now 'an assumption' - but no arguments from me - it certainly looks like these are JG 300 machines despite some anecdotal evidence that may suggest otherwise..
A couple of points regarding III. Gruppe perhaps; the closest loss to 150816, G-10 Black 4+ found at at Bad Langensalza that I can see is in fact a I. Gruppe machine - also in this WNr. range there are a good number of machines assigned to I. & IV Gruppen. I./JG 300 were in the throes of disbandment. We know too that III. & IV./ JG 300 did not use any Gruppe symbol as regular practise certainly through to April 45 - neither did I./JG 300 of course- that seems to rule out Olivier's theory of confusing the enemy- so why a horizontal bar and for what purpose..? All four Gruppen of JG 300 were in action in the sector Gotha-Langensalza-Eisenach-Kassel during early April 1945 and on more than one date sorties were flown by various ad-hoc unit groupings as far as I can tell from my reading of the JG 300 history. The "numeral argument" is valid perhaps - but leaving aside II./JG 300, 'Black 4' could be a 4. or 14. Staffel machine couldn't it..? 'Yellow 1' (?) likewise, a 3. or 15 Staffel aircraft ..? 16. Staffel had blue numbers. 150 XXX series losses were recorded by IV./JG 300 during April 45. Final comment - Fhj.-Uffz. Erik von Barnekow (11./JG 300) was brought down on 2 April in the same sector. His POW interrogation report is reproduced in the JG 300 history (Vol II) - there is no evidence there of any 'special markings' on his machine ...just about every other pertinent detail is noted - or, presumably, would have been, if it had been there.....

[George Hopp]

I hate to say it, but no one in this thread seems sure which sub type is represented by the Gustav in the photograph that started this discussion. At first glance most seem to think it's a G-10, but one or two have said, with equal clarity, that it's a G-14...maybe not an "AS" model but some other. Come now, it can't be all that hard to document based on solid detective work, or can it?

Well, yes, Harold, identifying these late-war 109s can sometimes be a real bugger. The G14/ASs can easily be mistaken for 109 G10s. So, then to the unit identification markings. And, as you can tell from the above discussions, even that is not always easy because at this time a lot of bad things were happening in Germany, and so documentation is not always available or definitive. Welcome to the Puzzle Palace.

For what it's worth, all the W.Nrs. mentioned above are G-10s assembled at Erla. This according to Prien/Rodeike's "Bf 109 F, G, & K."

[WEISNER]

George is right, This is a bugger, I pulled out the 109 book mentioned above by Prein and Rodeike a few days back, and still came away not knowing if a G-10 or G-14/AS?
I wanted to thank Nick Beale though for takeing the time to post the interesting document of aircraft assigned to III./JG300 from Erla-Leipzig.
Kevin