jet aircraft in Italy?

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your assistance. I will search for information on Kangas from the 416th records. They list his home town and university he graduated from.

The 416th were always attempting to shoot down "Recce Joe" who flew over Allied territory at night taking photos using the photo-flash bomb technique with Ju88s from Begamo. The Mosquiotes even attempted to shoot down the German aircraft as they landed at Begamo during the night.

During one mission on 24 March 1945, after observing several patterns of flares over a period of time, Capt. Iribe correctly deduced the pattern of signal flares to have the runway lights turned on. He asked his navigator, Talmidge Simpson, to fire a set pattern of flares, and the Luftwaffe turned on the runway lights. Iribe then attempted to strafe Ju88s parked along an apron but S/L and anti-aircraft fire forced him away.

The above account is from Talmidge Simpson, although the 416 NFS records state the events quite differently:

"Capt. Iribe had been stooging around Begamo airdrome to receive Recce Joe on his return. He dipped behind one mountian in hiding and waiting, once roaring down over the airdrome like a lion on its prey. Searchlights tried to cone him and he was shot at from all over. He stooged around until a warning came that Recce Joe was returing to base, then circled the airdrome. Recce Joe came in, was coned in searchlights, identified himself with a serie of red flares. Field landing lights came one, he landed, lights went off all in a matter of a few seconds. Iribe was not in a position to attack but came in behind him shooting red flares. Searchlights tried to catch him again. He went home tired after a busy night."

Memories fade with time, and this may have happened with Mr. Simpson. He may, or may not be corrcet in his recollections.

Give me time to answer your requests for information. Just returned from Mawell AFB where I copied records of various WWII units, including those involving the 416th. Need time to digest this information.

It seems there was no jet involvment with the chase as previously described. But how do we account for the high speeds recorded by both the Mosquito and GCI.

Yours very truly,
Norman Malayney

[George Hopp]

A Ju 88S with GM-1, and FuG 217 tail-warning radar?

[Nick Beale]

Close!

On the strength returns for Italy on 1 March 1945 you have a choice of the Ju 88 T-3 or Ju 188 D-2 on strength with 4.(F)/122.

[maxjvb]

my witness was shure to saw a Me 262 in the late days of war at Orio al Serio airport Bergamo.

[veltro]

Sorry, but no Me 262 did ever operate or flew in Italy, as evidenced in the postings of this thread and by the results of many years of researches.

The personal experience acquired through all this time, taught me to be extremely vary of "eyewitnesses" which claimed sightings of all kinds, most of those with hindsight reached through informations and inputs often gained only after the war, a sort of "layered" memory.

Even ANR pilots themselves did seem to remember "Me 262s" which in all cases proved to be either one of the three Ar 234s briefly based in Campoformido since late February 1945.

As already said, the only two airfields used by the Ar 234 (or by jets) were Lonate Pozzolo and Campoformido (not to mention a short stay in Osoppo of one Arado which required RATO rockets assistance to take-off) and each of their flights was duly reported, and also, due to the the very tiny quantities allotted of their special fuel, those were carefully placed only in the bases they used, and Orio al Serio wasn't among the recipients.

Last but not least, due to the very classified knowledge and use of the German jets, their movements were duly tracked and reported on documents both by the Germans and by their enemy, the Allies. The absence of any trace of such presence is a further evidence, IMHO.

[Nick Beale]

I'd just add my growing impression that to people in 1944-45, "all jets looked the same", perhaps because it was the absence of propellers that made the greatest impression on anyone who saw one of these aircraft, not the details of their shapes. I can think of at least two pilots who shot down an Ar 234 but claimed an Me 262 for.

Also, we tend to think of a bomber as being much bigger than a fighter but the Me 262 and Ar 234 were not so far apart in size (or so I thought when I built models of them when I was a boy!).

[maxjvb]

my eyewitness is a 84 age civil pilot that lived on the edge around the Airfield, entusiast in fling since ever. He confirmed me that was a ME 262 and not Arado ( he well know the planes), infact he think this plane was sent to Orio al Serio just for a Propaganda fly to give a hope to all Lufwaffe personnel in the base. The plane stayed at orio just a day.