Operation Steinbock question

[RT]

Well yes, so why were they not bigger (even adding up all the sorties on every front on any given night)? I would say because the Luftwaffe, the training organisation and the industry behind them were incapable of achieving more. If Steinbock didn't hurt the force, then it's still a fact that over Normandy the nightly effort was seldom more than 100 sorties.

I still wonder why so few, nd why hv'nt not be able to hv train the force in this particuliar eventuallity I mean the Landing, with no succesful landing in 1944 the war last one more year, if no succesful landing in 1945....

Remi

[Brian Bines]

Nick sorry I have not found the 1944 QM lists, I just have the NVM's for most of the units involved, plus a list of aircraft with technical problems for the first three raids supplemented by some unit histories and help from other enthusiasts. I have just made up my own hand written lists ( typing takes me a while) if I had the 1944 QM's list I would pay someone to type for me from the proceeds.
Looking at Kurfursts last post from damage reports, NVM's, combat reports plus various PRO files perhaps this will help:-

Two wave attack on 21/22-1-1944 - first wave reported as 227 bombers carring 230T of bombs, second wave 217 bombers carrying 245T of bombs. the RAF put up 96 fighter sorties to oppose both attacks ( from Dr. Prices book) with 29, 85, 96, 151 and 488 Sqds. claiming 8 shot down 1 probable and two damaged additionally AA claimed several more.
Target given as the Waterloo area. PRO reports show that in the first wave around 100 crossed the South coast between Hastings and Dungeness with only 15 attacking London, of the second wave only 13 were reported over London other incidents in Essex and Sussex, and over 100 incidents in Kent. From the two wave attack only some 30T of bombs hit London. A Home Office report compares to the Birmingham raid of 29/30-7-1942 as follows:-

London 21/22-1-1944 4 killed 76 serious inj. 12 Key Points hit, 91 fires

Bimingham29/30-7-42 95 killed 289 serious inj. 35Key points hit, 333 fires

Luftwaffe losses for this night were 1 Me410. 6 Do 217's, 6 Ju 188's, 14 Ju88's, 8 He 177's and 1 Fw 190 - 9 of these fell on or near the UK, 14 crashed on the Continent and 13 were missing three of those crashing on the UK fell to AA and three more returned with AA damage. Aircrew losses from these were 44 killed including two who bailed out over the channel but whoes aircraft returned plus two Beobachter of KG66 one given as Hohenkrank and the other as Hohentod, 58 men were missing, 11 injured and there were 16 POW's. In addition another 39 aircraft suffered some form of technical problems ( those with crew losses are included above).
So the majority of losses do not seem to have been to the UK Defences.


For the raid on 24/25-2-1944 it was reported 170 bombers were available with 195T bombs to attack Goverment Buildings in the Westminster area. From the British side over 100+ bombers crossed the South Coast flying to a turning Point near High Wycombe then making for London where 80T of bombs were scattered over the capital with another 25T in the Home Counties. In London 75 people were killed 2 serious fires started with another 29 medium and 210 smaller fires (Home Office Figures).
Against RAF claims by 29, 85, 96 and 488 Sqd's. for 2 He177's, 2 Ju 188's a Ju88 damaged and another probable, a Me410 damaged, three D0217's and another probable the Luftwaffe lost 2 Do217's, 3 Ju 188's, 3 Ju88's plus one damaged, and a He177 ( six crashes on the UK, 2 aircraft missing and two crashing on the Continent with N/F damage ). In addition an Intruder of 605 Sqd claimed an enemy aircraft damaged at Melsbroek. Luftwaffe aircrew losses were 18 killed, 7 missing, 2 inj. and 14 POW's.

Hopefully this compares a raid with poor results to a more successful one.

[Kutscha]

Two wave attack on 21/22-1-1944

Average bomb load
- 2026lb
- 2258lb

raid on 24/25-2-1944

Average bomb load
- 2294lb

This looks well below the published numbers for the a/c taking part in the raids. (~21% of average load capacity)

He 111 H-6 - 4,409 lb (internal) and 5,512 lb (external)
He 177 A-5 - up to 23,760lb
Ju 188E - 9,900lb
Ju 88 - 5,511 lb
Do 217M-1 - up to 8,818 lb

Average - 10,700lb

Any numbers for the actual bomb loads carried by each type of bombers?

[RT]

For 20/21 feb. raid we hv the figures stated in ADI/k

Ju88a-4 2xSC500 + 10x50 kg brandbomben
Ju188 2xAB 1000 + 10x 50 kg

So well above the 21 % mark, on these raids the pathfinders don't carry bombs

remi

[Graham Boak]

In answer to the dig about colonial policies: the war between Britain and Italy was begun by Italy. The aim was the extension of Italian colonial rule. The results were the return of Ethiopia to its own rulers, and the establishment of local rule in Eritrea and Northern African nations such as Libya. In no case did any of these actions lead to an extension of British rule into areas previously, if briefly, ruled by Italy.

If you wish to ask whether the populace wished to be ruled by Italy rather than themselves (or the British), by all means do, but I don't think this is the best forum for such political discussions.

[Brian Bines]

Basic figures I have for 21/22 Jan is around 480T of bombs between 444 aircraft sorties (including Fighter-bombers and Pathfinders) giving av. bomb-load of 1.08T . File PRO WO199/912 estimates 27 bombers dropped 30T of bombs on London (av 1.11T each) and another 140-150 a/c dropped 230T elsewhere (av 1.5 to 1.65T per a/c.) The file continues '' Average bombload of aircraft excluding Fighter-bombers is 1610kg for Jan. 21/22 to 1120kg for Feb.24/25. These bomb-loads appear remarkably light but a large proportion of I.B's were carried reducing the average considerably''.

To expand on Remi's information 'K' reports give the following bomb-loads :-

Jan 21/22 He177 1/KG40 2x2500 kg bombs
Do 217 KG2 2xABB1000
Ju 88 3/KG76 2xAAB500 and 12 50kg IB's

Jan 29/30 Ju 88 3/KG 54 1x AB1000, 1AAB500 and 8x70kg

Feb20/21 Ju 88 6/KG54 2x500 HE, 10x50kg IB's
Ju 88 3/KG54 2xAB1000
Ju 188 5/KG2 2xAB1000 and 10 50kg IB's

Feb 23/24 Do 217 I/KG2 1xAB1000 and 2 AB500 (11 aircraft)
Do 217 I/KG2 4xSC500 and 4BC50

Feb24/25 Do 217 3/KG2 1xAB1000 and 2xAB500
Do 217 3/KG2 4XSC500 and 4xBC50
Ju 188 6/KG2 2xSC500 and 10xBC50
Ju 88 8/KG6 2xAB1000
Ju188 2/KG66 2xSC500 and 10x50kg flares
He 177 2/KG100 4x1000kg HE

April18/19 Ju 188 5/KG2 1xAB1000, 2x500HE and 6xLC50
Ju188 5/KG2 10xBC50, 4xLC50 (acting as Marker)
Ju 88 6/KG6 2x500kg HE, 10x50kg HE
Ju 88 3/KG54 3x500kg HE
He177 3/KG100 12x 250kg HE

It would appear most aircraft were carrying well beneath their quoted max.loads. From 'K' reports it would seem quite common for new crews to start operations with a lighter load than the older crews.

[RT]

I read carefully what I hv written, nd in no way there was any political view, I just emphased on the power of England at that time, nd in no way the fact to put aside Italy could be considered by the biggest country of the time as a brilliant performance, the biggest performance of England during this war was to hv been built a very powerful force of strategic bombers nd to hv accepted to pay tribute for that, putting the money necessary but also in loosing quite 60 % of the men manning them

Concerning the politico-historical aspect I hv nothing to return you, but it seems that the History is not beginning in 1935, the causes seems o bit older

Remi

[Nick Beale]

Some information on the Portsmouth raid of 15/16 May 1944 from ULTRA:

Total aircraft operating: 106, consisting of 38 Ju 188; 34 Ju 88; 15 Fw 190; 9 Me 410; 6 Ju 88 S; 4 Do 217. Also 1 Ju 188 on night photo reconnaissance.

Main attack: 69 aircraft (3 Do 217; 34 Ju 88; 32 Ju 188) dropping 6 x SC 100 Trialen; 29 x SC 1000; 39 x SC 500 Trialen; 250 x SC 50; 69 x BM 1000-105A.

Missing: one Do 217 of III./KG 2; one Ju 188 of I./KG 2; two Ju 188 of I./KG 2; two Ju 88 of III./KG 54 (reported as "battle losses presumably over England").

Somebody also asked about the strength of raids over Italy in early 1944 and I didn't reply:

The Bari attack of 2 December 1943 totalled 105 sorties.

Allied estimates of raids on the Anzio beach head in the first few days ashore were 50–60 bombers a night. Some of these were from Italian bases, some from Fl.Div. 2 in Southern France. Soon after the landings, four Gruppen were brought back to Italy from the Steinbock force.

The raids on Corsican airfields on 12 May 1944 totalled 115 aircraft in two waves.