Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)

[Vinman]

Hi Boandlgramer,

Its too bad that some individuals cannot have an intelligent discussion, without insults.
If people could only put away their bias opionions and stop making blanket statements, then evyone could have a great debate. Oh well, maybe the subject will come up again.
The only question I have is: Does Hartmann's score or any other Luftwaffe Ace's score include shared kills? You never see it written in any publication. For example, Johnnie Johnson: 38 Kills (30 Individual + 7 Shared).
Vinman.

[Boandlgramer]

in the german luftwaffe there was no shared victory.

[Vinman]

I find that hard to believe. If one can imagine an aerial battle, with say 25 to 30 aircraft on each side, everyone is in the sky shooting at each other. Surely, there must have been a few who shot at the same plane, therfore, sharing in a kill?

Vinman.

[MB]

There was the 'iron rule' in German AF during both of WWs: '1 kill = 1 pilot', no percentage, no shares.

[John Beaman]

Over and over German fighter pilots state that they did not share victories. The pilots claiming a share were left to sort out for themselves who received credit for a kill. Often senior pilots, already having credits, would give way to a less experienced pilot to encourage them.

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by MB

There was the 'iron rule' in German AF during both of WWs: '1 kill = 1 pilot', no percentage, no shares.

This rule simplifies a lot the historians' work.

For example, in the Rumanian air force (ARR), shared victories counted as a full victory for every pilot, who took part in destroying that particular airplane in air or on ground, although the fighter squadron/group tally raised only with one. It's causing huge problem in sorting out individual scores.

[Vinman]

Hi Denes,

I know that here in Canada, the RCAF included shares in the total score of the pilot. So, as you can see, I am still reluctant to believe that the Luftwaffe's Pilots did not have shared kills in their total. Aerial combat, with many planes in the sky, could be very confusing to say the least.
Vinman

[Franek Grabowski]

Vinman

It simply means that the German pilots were not credited with shared victories. If several pilots have fired at the same aircraft (and noticed the fact), only one of them received credit. Thus it is not possible to say how many of Hartmann's victories were shared ones.

[Andrew Arthy]

Originally Posted by Vinman

Hi Denes,

I know that here in Canada, the RCAF included shares in the total score of the pilot. So, as you can see, I am still reluctant to believe that the Luftwaffe's Pilots did not have shared kills in their total. Aerial combat, with many planes in the sky, could be very confusing to say the least.
Vinman

Hi,

I know of one example of a Luftwaffe pilot having a shared victory. A pilot from I./J.G. 2 who flew in the Mediterranean theatre in 1944 began the campaign with 3.5 victories, and ended it with 5.5. Obviously he had gained a shared victory in France in 1943 or 1944.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

"You'll never silence the voice of the voiceless" - Rage Against The Machine

[Tom Semenza]

Some exceptions I have seen to the general rule of only one claim being credited per aircraft shot down: when the gunner in a multi-seat aircraft was credited with an "Abschuss" it seems that the pilot was also given credit in some instances, particularly in the Nachtjagd. Also in the Zestörer unit covering the Atlantic (V./KG 40 , later I./ZG 1) shared claims appear to have been awarded to two or more pilot's (c.f. Chris Goss in "Bloody Biscay" and Tony Wood's claims lists.)

Tom